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 Enchanted Nights
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12/16/2011 4:44:29 PM reply with quote send message to Enchanted Nights Object to Post

quote
posted by ShootForTheMoon
For agility, I like what the person said about using current traits to determine flexibility, speed, and stamina. Isn't that what those stats translate to outside the ring? Why not use them for what they're intended for.

I'm also for breed biases. In real life, great danes are not as good at agility as border collies. Why should there not be a bias?
b]
I agree with this completely.

Will these new traits affect SOP? When will they be added?
 Picardy
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12/16/2011 4:58:50 PM reply with quote send message to Picardy Object to Post

quote
posted by Enchanted Nights

Will these new traits affect SOP? When will they be added?

If it's anything like the different genetic categories on ShowHorse, then no I don't think the agility or performance traits would effect the Conformation SOP, however you could calculate it separately as it's own type of SOP.
 Enchanted Nights
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12/16/2011 5:04:58 PM reply with quote send message to Enchanted Nights Object to Post

Okay, thanks happy :) That's kind of what I was thinking it would be like, but I wasn't sure.
 MagicWolf
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12/16/2011 8:31:36 PM reply with quote send message to MagicWolf Object to Post

quote
posted by griffin
I dislike speed since it should just be a function of the size of the dog it isn't really a separate traits.
grif,

Speed relative to size should absolutely be an agility trait - it's one of the most important ones. Dogs of the exact same size have all different speeds. There is probably some overlap with drive, good training, and good handling, which indirectly also contribute to speed, but it remains that some dogs are just plain faster than others.
 ShootForTheMoon
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12/17/2011 12:49:29 AM reply with quote send message to ShootForTheMoon Object to Post

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posted by Lost Hill Deerhounds
IMHO if done correctly the addition of the performance events has the potential to bring in new players as well as appealing to a lot of existing players.

just my two cents
Rhonda

I understand that earning other titles would indicate a well rounded dog, and I can see why people would like to add more events. However, what draws me to this game is the fact that it's main focus is conformation. There is no other game out there that creates this kind of competition in conformation. That is why I play this game.

In fact, when I played games with multiple field trial options, I did not enjoy them as much. Users were stretched too thin between events, and having two different sets of traits was frustrating and annoying. Maybe it was the way those games presented the events.

My question is how would you introduce those events without taking away from the conformation aspect of the game? If you can do that, I'm all for it.

Thank you for sharing your opinion. I'm genuinely curious.

~ShootForTheMoon
 Western Coast Kennels
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12/17/2011 1:59:26 PM reply with quote send message to Western Coast Kennels Object to Post

When will the agility options be available from a dog's page?
 Canis Lupis Kennels
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12/18/2011 9:50:32 AM reply with quote send message to Canis Lupis Kennels Object to Post

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posted by Wildsyde
Don't need stamina for agility, for the vast majority of dogs it's all over in less than a minute. My corgis typically run standard courses in 50sec, JWW in 30sec. BCs of course are faster.

Flexibility and speed are good. Flexibility cuts down on the number of yards actually run. Speed of course is speed. Show obed is good to use for trainability.

Maybe instead of "Aframe" you could do Aframe and Dogwalk, they're similar. Teeter is more different. Chute/tunnel similar enough to keep the same.

its a game, it really doesn't have to be THAT realistic.
 Miniature
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12/19/2011 4:33:32 PM reply with quote send message to Miniature Object to Post

this post has been edited 1 time(s)

I like the idea with agility a lot! All others is welcome to make the game more exciting.

Concerning Miniature Schnauzers: I would appreciate it to add a 4th color - white - from real life I know white Miniature Schnauzers exist.

But players should be able to add this Source dogs from the already exciting kennel and not from creating a new one. From my experience with Black and White Wire Foxterriers I know it will take about only one year to have a full competent new color.

happy :) Iris
 Canis Lupis Kennels
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12/19/2011 5:49:43 PM reply with quote send message to Canis Lupis Kennels Object to Post

quote
posted by griffin
Independence looks at a problem and has different positive and negative aspects depending on the task.

Independent thinkers will try to solve the problem themselves without needing input from the handler in the context of agility this is good because they work well at a distance and can drive ahead of the handler (go faster). But it also has its downsides they are perfectly happy to go do their own thing including run what they think the course "should be" and will more easily go off-course in Agility.

For tasks like lure coursing or tracking where the handler has little input it is better if the dog is independent. However for things like retrieving where the handler has to direct the dog where to go, or doggy-dancing where the handler has to direct the dog very precisely to keep them in time with the music it is better for the dog to be less independent.

grif,

agreed, I know from real life laugh :D
 NissaV
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12/19/2011 6:19:48 PM reply with quote send message to NissaV Object to Post

quote
posted by Lost Hill Deerhounds
quote
posted by ShootForTheMoon
I may be in the minority, but I would like to have the ability to earn the other titles. I would like to see my deerhounds in this kennel with conformation and coursing titles.

If the system is set up using the genetics, a dog with "titles on both ends" would mean that I am breeding a well rounded dog. Now, I'm personally not going to try for a coursing title on my collies (rhondacline kennel) - but I would like the option to try and put a herding title on those dogs. Field trials and hunting titles on the sporting breeds, etc.

IMHO if done correctly the addition of the performance events has the potential to bring in new players as well as appealing to a lot of existing players.

just my two cents
Rhonda

I agree wholeheartedly; I would love to see more working titles. If I bred in real life, I would personally consider health and working ability to be my top priorities, for various soap-boxy reasons.

I realize that health stuff could be too much of a bummer to really play well into this game, but I think having working events is key--honestly, that would keep me interested in having more kennels longer than just about anything else.
 Guiding Senjis
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12/28/2011 3:42:01 PM reply with quote send message to Guiding Senjis Object to Post

quote
posted by Aerostar Afghans
Instead of A-frame, you could just have a category called "contacts" which would cover teeter, A-frame and dog walk ( and possibly tables..) . Although in RL there is a little difference in training each, they are similar enough that here they could certainly be lumped together. People who want to be sticklers about the technicalities of training each can pretend to do a different contact each time they do a contact session!
Thumbs up agree Aero. Knew had read that and wanted to find it to give it a push. That will give fewer things to train as well.

As to the independent vs smart I got lost too, as many herding terrier or sight hounds are known to be independent thinkers, which does not mean they are not smart, far from it. Basenji for example are known as very independent thinkers who can get into major mischief because they are smart, and work things through in very sharp minds. Border Collies, Paps as well.

I know in agility teams it's benefit to have small dogs on a team as height of the jumps is based on size of the smallest dog, not sure here if plan is for teams at all or if I am confusing sports...
 Wildsyde
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12/28/2011 5:26:17 PM reply with quote send message to Wildsyde Object to Post

Flyball has teams where shortest dog counts. I'm sure there's some agility venue that might have teams but it's a rarity if it does exist. But we wouldn't have teams here anyhow in SD.
 griffin
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12/29/2011 4:39:49 AM reply with quote send message to griffin Object to Post

quote
posted by Wildsyde
Flyball has teams where shortest dog counts. I'm sure there's some agility venue that might have teams but it's a rarity if it does exist. But we wouldn't have teams here anyhow in SD.
Some organizations have "teams" as an event usually only involves two dogs/handlers and each run half a course relay-style, but the course has to be designed so there are no overlapping jumps for when dogs of different heights are together. -> My 13" Pap was once paired with a 26"+ Doberman.

grif,
 LeJardin
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1/6/2012 7:41:48 PM reply with quote send message to LeJardin Object to Post

quote
posted by Pendragon
These should all be linked to traits already in play: FQ, HQ, TN&B and Gait. Dogs with excellent stats in the areas are going to have greater speed, stamina and flexibility - those with poor will not. Doesn't mean that they won't try to compensate with drive but at some point, structure will tell and they will start failing. Stamina is also linked to the 'Muscle tone' already sessioning in the game. Dogs needs to be fully sessioned (or beyond) to do well. No, they do not need 'stamina' per se but dogs to need to be in good overall condition to do well.
I like this a lot. I love the fact that the current genetic traits would tie in to how the dog "physically" performs.


Wondering if there has been more talk and I've just missed it or if we're kind of in limbo at the moment?

I am REALLY hoping that agility is just the first in a number of new events to be added

Rhonda

 Wildsyde
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1/6/2012 9:09:03 PM reply with quote send message to Wildsyde Object to Post

I think Jeff thought it might be easy to impliment and found out it wasn't quite so easy like obedience was. Which we don't want as all you have to do there is session up enough and you've got the title. Need some real challenge and competition to it like conformation does.
 LeJardin
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1/7/2012 9:23:40 PM reply with quote send message to LeJardin Object to Post

ahhh, I see.

Yes, definitely want something more like what has been discussed here. I've played around with obedience here and it doesn't hold much appeal to me as is.
 thedoggyfood
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1/8/2012 11:12:00 AM reply with quote send message to thedoggyfood Object to Post

Maybe balance? Like a se-saw or some thing?
 luckydogwhisperer
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1/9/2012 8:24:49 PM reply with quote send message to luckydogwhisperer Object to Post

Where are the new traits at in the generations so far? I bought a Golden three weeks ago, just for agility, but not much has happened yet...


Luckydogwhisperer
 itsjustmebre
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1/11/2012 1:40:59 PM reply with quote send message to itsjustmebre Object to Post

Looking forward to agility! Might even come back on SD regularly once it's all addedhappy :)

~IJMB
 GaylanStudio1
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1/13/2012 2:25:00 PM reply with quote send message to GaylanStudio1 Object to Post

Ok, I’m going to throw in my two cents worth although I’m not sure that I will be a big participant in Agility. I would probably have more interest in “traditional” trials – pointing, retrieving, herding, tracking, etc.

Anyway, The way I would approach this whole performance thing (applies to ShowHorse too) is to compile a list of traits that might have some, even fairly small impact to any and all currently imaginable events then pick the ones that are applicable to the event in question - there's a lot of overlap. As someone else has suggested, let’s look ahead to the future in this.

I don’t think we should overlook the possibility of incorporating some of the ideas that have come up into the existing obedience application either.

So here’s my list of Performance Traits:
Scenting Ability
Vision
Auditory Acuity
Agility/Flexibility
Speed
Stamina
Self-Reliance
Biddable
Aptitude(Intelligence)
Focus/Drive(herding,pointing?)
(Plus the additional appropriate physical/conformational traits).

And where I see them possibly coming into play:

Scenting – fairly straight forward – Pointing/Flushing, Retrieving, Tracking(rescue, law enforcement), ScentDiscrimination(Obedience), Herding(find that lost lamb), Hound Trailing, others????

Vision – LureCoursing – a sighthound skill. Perhaps also hand signals in obedience and herding, who knows . . .

Auditory Acuity – how well he hears. Guarding/Protection, Pointing/Flushing(an auxiliary to scent – that hiding bird made a tiny rustle in the bushes), . . .

Agility/Flexibility – anything that requires rapid changes of directing and or jumping. Agility of course, lure coursing, herding, practically everything physical to a degree.

Speed – Coursing, Pointing/Retrieving trials, Herding, . . .

Stamina – (related to conditioning and muscle but perhaps there’s an additional physical component). Pointing/Retrieving, Coursing(multiple runs?), Tracking and Trailing, Herding, . . .

Self-Reliance – sort of what others are calling independence, but the ability to make decisions without specific directing – Herding, Guarding, . . .

Biddable – how willing to be trained and directed. Some breeds and individuals are more stubborn and willful. High biddability an asset for regular repetitive tasks(standard obedience) and the more controlled events(Retrieving,Agility,Protection), less critical for the more independent or instinct driven activities.

Aptitude - I prefer this term to intelligence. Beagles and Afghans are just as intelligent as Poodles but have a different perspective on life, interests, and skills. So, in this application, “Aptitude” would probably have to refer to the normal and/or traditional occupations for the breed. Kind of vague I know.

Focus/Drive – the resistance to distraction – perseverance perhaps. Pointing(need to hold a point), Herding(keep your eye on the sheep), Tracking/Trailing, Long obedience “stays”. It could be a factor in standard obedience, although not critical. The best performing dogs are generally very focused on their handler.

Focus could be enhanced by training.

Agility, stamina, and speed could be enhanced by conditioning. They are also related to physical conformation.

Large breeds with large heads have bigger noses and ears with greater reception areas for scent and sound – perhaps. (I read an article once somewhere that tested this theory though I can’t recall if it was both senses or just hearing that they tested. The wider set ears provide better triangulation to pinpoint source of sound.)


I’m sure there are other “skills” that others can add and you may not agree with what I’ve suggested. That’s fine. It might be argued that things such as “Biddable” and “Self-Reliant” are opposite extremes of the same characteristic – could be.

The theory behind this posting is that if you define as many of the elements that will be involved, when it comes to programming the events, by just changing the “critical” values, one program could possibly accommodate all and any event you could envision. How it would work in practice, not sure. I tend to get carried away with elaborate solutions sometimes (LOL). Sorry for that.


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Did you know?
The sit for exam is a modified version of the Stand for Exam. It is generally used in novice level classes and requires the handler to order the dog to sit and then to move away from the dog the length of the leash. The judge will then approach the dog and pet the dog's head.