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Author Topic : Promoting activeness instead of passiveness
 Boksu
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6/15/2013 11:21:40 AM reply with quote send message to Boksu Object to Post   

I have been playing showdog for almost 10 years now. When I started the game, it was full of life, there were shows with 2000 entries every day. Almost everyone was showing and showing was THE way of making money. My best dogs earned tens of thousands of dollars during their show careers.
But then the world changed and showdog lost a lot of players. Nowdays even the biggest show of the day won't get 1000 entries, and the others are even smaller.

www.showdog.com/users/dog_info.aspx?id=12271830
Just to bring up an example of what I'm talking about, I bring up this dog. She has 2 show placements, multiple group placements, 19 BIBs. Back in the old days, this would have been a dog that you show until her retirement, simply to make money. With today's entries, she has made $97 during her career. That is approximately $4 per show. So she hasn't even broken even, I have lost money just in her show entries, not to talk about the sessioning cost.
She isn't even the best of her breed. There are much better mini poodles around. Due to the lack of competition, it simply isn't worth showing any of them.

In my other kennel, my finnish spitzes are constantly competing with eachother. Unless I have the dogs to put in the competition, there is very few majors around.

The current situation is promoting passiveness. Everyone is paid the same, and the rich ones are those who only keep a few dogs, and never show. As soon as you start showing, you see your balance going down. I am not sure how this is in the bigger breeds, but in smaller breeds, not showing is the way of keeping your balance up. There is no "just showing a few dogs" - as if you don't have the competition yourself, there will be no points around! Out of my accounts, my source breeding account is doing financially best! The account that never shows, buys dogs or uses other people's studs.

So, what can we do? I have been thinking about this for a while and brought my ideas up in the chat room yesterday. I was told to post them here as well for everyone to see. Here they are:
1) Decreasing minimum salary. With no puppies around to be fed until 10 days of age, the minimum salary could be easily decreased to $2.50. 15 x $2.50 is $37,5. This is still enough to run a kennel of 30 dogs and feed them without losing money (for ex. source breeders). You can even save some dollars every day.


2) Instead, I would suggest having minimum show payouts. For example for a $5 show, I would suggest this:
BOS - minimum payout of $5
BOB - $7.50
4th in group - $10
3rd in group - $15
2nd in group - $25
Best in Group - $50
4th in Show - $100
3rd in Show - $200
2nd In Show - $300
Best In Show - $400

This is just my suggestion of the minimum payouts in all shows. With minimum payout I mean that if there isn't enough entries to give a proper payout, these are the guaranteed payouts that will be given out. Just like minimum salary is $3 at the moment, and it is the guaranteed minimum that we are given, even if the salary would be lower in reality. If we get people out there showing, and we have more entries again, we would probably never have to worry about these minimum payouts again.

3) Payout for finishing Ch and GCh For example $50 for finishing a champion, $100 if you finish a grand champion.

I believe, that if we start maximizing our current players, and get people active again, this will also attract new people. To be honest, this game is almost boring the way it is. Who would want to join a boring game?

But this would promote people showing just any dogs in any breed, just to get the BOB payout?!
That is exactly my point. Once someone else realizes, that someone's dogs, who is not good at all, is making out a lot of easy money in the empty shows, they start entering their dogs for the easy money as well. And so we get competition.
Also, in small breeds, the majors and points would probably still be in max 1 show per day. So what if someone enters their old champion to another show to make a few dollars?

But RL they don't pay show payments...
Well, how many of you own 25-30 dogs, breed them every chance you get, forever home your puppies to whatever homes, only show a few of your dogs, hire assistants to take care of the best and never groom, exercise or train the rest and feed them whatever is cheapest? I hope not many... In RL, that is called running a puppy mill. That is why we need to think about this game differently. In real life, people enjoy showing as a hobby, and are happy to pay for it. I can't say I really really look forward to showdog shows like I enjoy RL shows.

Comments welcome... What do you think?
 Welsh Corgi Kennels
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6/15/2013 2:30:31 PM reply with quote send message to Welsh Corgi Kennels Object to Post

I totally agree. That would make me want to enter more shows also.

I even agree with the whole real life agruement. this is a game.
 terryterrier
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6/15/2013 3:52:40 PM reply with quote send message to terryterrier Object to Post

Great suggestions.
 rowanw
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6/15/2013 4:54:54 PM reply with quote send message to rowanw Object to Post

I agree that the money/ kennel income situation needs to be revamped to compensate for the current state of play.

 Lustre
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6/15/2013 5:32:20 PM reply with quote send message to Lustre Object to Post

this post has been edited 1 time(s)

I agree!
 Boulder Kennel
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6/15/2013 5:51:37 PM reply with quote send message to Boulder Kennel Object to Post

I wholeheartedly agree with this

~Lissa
 Summerwind Kennels
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6/15/2013 6:16:40 PM reply with quote send message to Summerwind Kennels Object to Post

Absolutely! Well said I was in the chat room with you the other day (Striker) and there were some awesome ideas being thrown around. I too have been playing for nearly 10 years and miss the "old days" of showing.

I truly hope Jeff sees this post and takes it into consideration, I think something like this could really revitalize SD!
 Dead Until Dark
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6/15/2013 6:39:20 PM reply with quote send message to Dead Until Dark Object to Post

I agree! I played about 8 years ago, took a break for a few years and came back to a boring game. Would love to create more life and buzz in this game again.
 Kalynda
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6/15/2013 7:08:09 PM reply with quote send message to Kalynda Object to Post

Totally agree!

So happy to have Boksu back happy :)
 Inspirational Kennels
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6/15/2013 7:11:08 PM reply with quote send message to Inspirational Kennels Object to Post

Completely agree!

~Shimmer
 Pearl City
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6/15/2013 7:53:51 PM reply with quote send message to Pearl City Object to Post

YES!!! I totally agree.

Natalie.
 Calixter
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6/15/2013 9:29:06 PM reply with quote send message to Calixter Object to Post

I actually just entered one of my newly sessioned dogs in a few shows.. and there were only FIVE available to enter.

When I first started, there was a show line-up for the entire month. It was exhausting entering several dogs in shows! Tonight, I spent two minutes.

With the current state of play, there's no financial incentive to show. If those of us showing have no money, there is no way we can dish out $1000 to create a show, or several thousand for several shows. It's an endless cycle and SD is definitely suffering.

If it isn't re-vamped soon, not only will people not want to show because they can't afford it, but they won't be able to show because there won't be any shows to enter.

I definitely miss the old days. sad :(
 Black Veil Brides
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6/16/2013 3:01:46 AM reply with quote send message to Black Veil Brides Object to Post

I'm definitely on board.

Perhaps breeders in each breed can agree to show a minimum of 2 dogs per month or something. People may not be entirely on board with this but it would increase show inputs and the breed forums would more than likely pick up again.

Emma
 Boksu
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6/16/2013 4:49:07 AM reply with quote send message to Boksu Object to Post

Calixter, I don't think not having much shows on the schedule is a problem. Personally I don't miss the days when I had to get up at 7 AM (My time zone is GMT +2) every morning to get the best handlers for my best dogs at SD midnight, when the new shows came out on the schedule. This was what you had to do in order to be able to compete for BIS placements in the more competitive breeds. With so few entries, we don't need much more shows. Also, I think once we start getting more show entries, people are willing to sponsor more expensive shows and then we will have more shows on the schedule. Fixing one issue will fix the other.

Black Veil Brides: That is a good idea on paper, but I doubt it would work in reality. Even if we get people to do that for a while, some people will quit, some can't afford to session anymore, some will forget they made a deal... And in a few months we are in the same situation again. Some will not agree to it in the first place, and why would you, especially if your dogs are not competitive. We need something why people would want to show & session at least 2 dogs per month.
 Black Veil Brides
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6/16/2013 5:50:25 AM reply with quote send message to Black Veil Brides Object to Post

quote
posted by Boksu


Black Veil Brides: That is a good idea on paper, but I doubt it would work in reality. Even if we get people to do that for a while, some people will quit, some can't afford to session anymore, some will forget they made a deal... And in a few months we are in the same situation again. Some will not agree to it in the first place, and why would you, especially if your dogs are not competitive. We need something why people would want to show & session at least 2 dogs per month.

Yeah I had some doubts about the idea, but if people are close in some breeds then maybe they could make an agreement. I had some kind of agreement a couple years back with a few people.

Emma
 Slipping Shadows
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6/16/2013 7:47:02 AM reply with quote send message to Slipping Shadows Object to Post

I am for this idea! We have very little competition, it is very hard to finish a dog, so I only session and show the very best dog in my kennel at a time. If entries go up, points will be available again as well. The added payouts would be awesome, and allow people to continue showing.

I keep considering cancelling my subscription as it really has become boring to me.
 Secret Kennels
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6/16/2013 11:07:55 AM reply with quote send message to Secret Kennels Object to Post

I completely agree with this!
 Degree
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6/16/2013 11:16:16 AM reply with quote send message to Degree Object to Post

this post has been edited 1 time(s)

I do like the idea of minimum show payouts for sure.
One of my bitches went BOB today over 7 other dogs and earned $4.80 while the entry fee was $5, so even though we got what we were after (the GCH points), I lost .20. While that's nothing to cry over, I didn't realize how we aren't breaking even with our wins, especially while entering multiple dogs in one show.

Oddly enough, my class dog went 3rd out of 3 (Puppy class) and made $1.20? The way payouts are calculated now seems wonky at best unless I'm missing something.

Ok, I do see the 8% to 3rd in Class of the overall 40% to class winners. It's still strange, considering, and the minimums would help that.
 GaylanStudio9
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6/16/2013 4:47:11 PM reply with quote send message to GaylanStudio9 Object to Post

Personally, what stops me from showing most often is being over the 30. At the moment I have several fully sessioned fairly nice dogs in two breeds (maybe three) that I'd be happy to throw into shows.

Problem - I've got 50 or so in the kennel, all of which have something I want to keep so I'm having a more difficult time than usual to thin things out.

Lift the population block on showing and I will. I have no problem with the breeding/buying block. Alternatively, count dogs at breeding age instead of show age - count at 30 days instead of 14.

 Studio Dogs
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6/16/2013 11:51:15 PM reply with quote send message to Studio Dogs Object to Post

we weren't charged a handler fee back then.
we didn't get to choose our judges.

rather then payouts, and the unfair advantage of picking a judge, we should have one auto game per night. $5 entry fee.
 rowanw
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6/17/2013 6:45:30 AM reply with quote send message to rowanw Object to Post

quote
posted by Studio Dogs
we weren't charged a handler fee back then.
we didn't get to choose our judges.

rather then payouts, and the unfair advantage of picking a judge, we should have one auto game per night. $5 entry fee.

imho, that would have the opposite effect. One of the reasons for the judge changes was to allow different breeds to have a chance at group/best in show.
At the moment I have a couple of days a week that I might have a slim to none chance of getting a group placement, that's one of the few things that I look forward to in the game.

I think, if you want to get people "playing" you need goals to fulfill - GIVE players tasks to complete that gets them in the show ring. You can help the money situation by giving money bonuses for fulfilling those goals.

x amount when you finish a dog
x amount when you finish a GCh
x amount if you add a CD title
x amount if you add a CDX
x amount when you have won BOB 50 times

#1 we have to attract new players, convert those players to subscribing full time players and retain existing full time players.
Why do players leave? What works in the game, what doesn't?

I would love to see obedience tweaked and other sports added.

I apologize if this rambles, I'm still on my first cup of coffee, so may not be quite as coherent as I think I am. wink :)

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Did you know?
There are about 900 breeds of sheep in the world.
The Kennel Club (UK) system, which is also used by the Australian National Kennel Council[1] and in other countries, is considered the most difficult to earn a title under.
Did you know?
A specialty show may be regional or national. A "Best in Show" win at a national specialty show is tremendously prestigious, indicating that the winning dog or bitch triumphed at a contest which attracted entries from the most serious fanciers of that breed in the country or continent. Some specialty shows attract international entries.