.com Forum · Boston Terrier

Ok folks, I have reviewed the new list that Lilliput sent me. All permutations of the 5 loci/11 alleles seem to be covered.

Does anyone have any issues with this list - loci, alleles, text descriptions? Would anyone like to discuss anything about these further?

It may or may not be necessary to re-assign colours. I suspect that all the alleles exist in the population but the colours may be incorrectly labelled - I'm not sure. If this is true, and if&when we get the new list implemented, some of the dogs may change colour, however the genetic code would not have changed - the descriptions will more accurately represent the genetics.

If some of the alleles are missing, we may need to have colours re-assigned - colours will definitely change at the genetic level. Would anyone have serious issues with this? The missing alleles could be brought back through starters, providing the starters are being correctly generated.

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K - Black
Kbr - Brindle
k - Allows Fawn


B - Black
b - Brown

D - Normal
d - Blue dilution

C- full color
ch- dilutes red pigments

E- full color
e- honey/cream

Brindle and White
(KbrKbr)(BB/Bb)(DD/Dd)(CC/Cch/chch) (EE/Ee)

Seal Brindle and White
(Kbrk)(BB/Bb)(DD/Dd)(CC/Cch/chch)(EE/Ee)

Black and White
(KK/KKbr)(BB/Bb)(DD/Dd)(CC/Cch/chch)(EE/Ee)

Seal and White
(Kk)(BB/Bb)(DD/Dd)(CC/Cch/chch)(EE/Ee)

Chocolate Fawn and White
(kk)(bb)(DD/Dd)(CC/Cch)(EE/Ee)

Red Fawn and White
(kk)(bb)(DD/Dd)(chch)(EE/Ee)

Chocolate and White
(KK/KKbr/Kk)(bb)(DD/Dd)(CC/Cch)(EE/Ee)

Red and White
(KK/KKbr/Kk)(bb)(DD/Dd)(chch)(EE/Ee)

Fawn and White
(kk)(BB/Bb)(DD/Dd)(CC/Cch/chch)(EE/Ee)

Blue and White
(KK/Kkbr/Kk)(BB/Bb)(dd)(CC/Cch/chch)(EE/Ee)

Lilac and White
(KK/Kkbr/Kk)(bb)(dd)(CC/Cch/chch)(EE/Ee)

Blue Fawn and White (*)
(kk)(BB/Bb)(dd)(CC/Cch/chch)(EE/Ee)

Lilac Fawn and White
(kk)(bb)(dd)(CC/Cch/chch)(EE/Ee)

Chocolate Brindle and White (*)
(KbrKbr/Kbrk)(bb)(DD/Dd)(CC/Cch)(EE/Ee)

Red Brindle and White (*)
(KbrKbr/Kbrk)(bb)(DD/Dd)(chch)(EE/Ee)

Blue Brindle and White (*)
(KbrKbr/Kbrk)(BB/Bb)(dd)(CC/Cch/chch)(EE/Ee)

Lilac Brindle and White (*)
(KbrKbr/Kbrk)(bb)(dd)(CC/Cch/chch)(EE/Ee)

Honey and White (black pigment)
(KK/KKbr/Kk/KbrKbr/Kbrk/kk)(BB/Bb)(DD/Dd)(CC/Cch)(ee)

Honey and White (blue pigment)
(KK/KKbr/Kk/KbrKbr/Kbrk/kk)(BB/Bb)(dd)(CC/Cch)(ee)

Honey and White (chocolate pigment)
(KK/KKbr/Kk/KbrKbr/Kbrk/kk)(bb)(DD/Dd)(CC/Cch)(ee)

Honey and White (lilac pigment)
(KK/KKbr/Kk/KbrKbr/Kbrk/kk)(bb)(dd)(CC/Cch)(ee)

Cream and White (black pigment)
(KK/KKbr/Kk/KbrKbr/Kbrk/kk)(BB/Bb)(DD/Dd)(chch)(ee)

Cream and White (red pigment)
(KK/KKbr/Kk/KbrKbr/Kbrk/kk)(bb)(DD/Dd)(chch)(ee)

Cream and White (blue pigment)
(KK/KKbr/Kk/KbrKbr/Kbrk/kk)(BB/Bb)(dd)(chch)(ee)

Cream and White (lilac pigment)
(KK/KKbr/Kk/KbrKbr/Kbrk/kk)(bb)(dd)(chch)(ee)

With these percentages-
40% of all bostons are brindle and white.
15% of all bostons are black and white
10% of bostons are seal brindle and white
5% of all bostons are seal/white.
10% are red/white.
5% are cream/white
5% are blue and white
5% are choco/white
5% are fawn/white

The only issue I have with this list (besides the fact that I am hardcore only standard colors) is that Seal and white and Seal Brindle and White are WAAAAAY more prevalent in the boston terrier breed in real life.. you also do not have Black Brindle and White on the list which is in fact the MOST prevalent boston terrier color there is.. true black and white is harder to come by in the breed then one would think.. I know breeders who have NEVER produced true black and whites in over 3 decades of breeding. As I said before when it comes to standard colors the order of precentage is
Black Brindle and white
Seal Brindle and white
Seal and white
Black and white

Brindle is not a color it is a pattern... it is generally only used for dogs like my male Coop who is definately not a black brindle and white and is way to light to be a seal brindle and white. His breeder considers him a mahogany brindle and white but that isn't an option on the registeration so he is registered as Brindle and white.

This "coloring" is less common then seal and white but more common then true black and white


Also the chocolate and white would NEVER have normal pigment so therefore could not have the full color gene (which is dominant) they would have to be ch/ch as chocolate is also a form of liver the same as red just different shades. The same goes for blue, fawn and lilac.. it is rare to find photos of these colors of dogs but when you do find them they ALWAYS have self colored noses (same color as coat) and light colored eyes therefore their pigment genes are diluted. And since it is a recessive gene (it takes 2 to express it) none of the red, chocolate, blue or lilac variations would have the genetic code for full color or be able to pass it on to their offspring. So if you were to breed red to red, or blue to blue, lilac to lilac etc.. or any other variant of the diluted colors you would never get a puppy with dark pigment EVER. You would have to breed to a black, seal, or honey dog with dark pigment to have any hope of having a red produce a dog with dark pigment. Pretty much what I am saying is a red to red breeding would only produce reds.. same goes for blue, fawn and lilac.

I will honestly admit that I do not understand the genetics of Honey and cream as the examples I have seen of these dogs ALWAYS have black pigment so they are not a dilution but they have not always been present in the breed.. the general consensus is that these colors came about by introducing the frenchie at some point in the pedigree by unscrupulous breeders who had both breeds in house, so then these dogs wouldn't be considered purebred.


Just my 2 cents.

I have to agree with Jul for some reason Black Brindle & white keeps getting confused with Brindle they are in no way the same color or pattern. A Black Brindle is a Black color with some brindling in spots or areas no more then that some may only have a stripe or two on there whole body and are other wise black her boy is what they call Brindle and White in the breed they are almost as rare as an actual Black and White what I think her boy is actually a Seal Brindle that has been bred to be to light in color less black more red this can happen as we all know by breeding lighter and lighter versions of one color. That being said I know that removing these rare colors from the game will probably not happen so lets try and set them up to breed more true to RL if we can she's right about how you have to breed these colors it has to be same to same sure you could breed the genes into another color by breeding say a red to a black and all the black puppies would carry that color but they would have to be bred to another with the same mix of genes or another red to bring it out. So if nothing else these colors need to be very low on the percentage range of colors like if you want to break down the cream/honey color each would have to be .5% or something along that line. She's also right about cream/honey being frenchie colors and coming from that crossing out. I'm not sure where the fawns have come from but I suspect from frenchies as well I am seeing more of them lately in RL. But like I've said before the blues and lilacs I've only ever seen pics of online on websites that you can tell they are breeding rare colors just for the out of this world prices people will pay for one of these rare colors and of course like all breeders that breed for money they always come up with some story as to why they do it and how they love the breed of course puppy mills say the same thing. Thats my main problem with having them in the game is promoting these colors to people who play the game and not really knowing dogs think it would be good to do in RL. Just because they read some of these peoples websites and see them here in a showdog game thats based on RL as far as they can tell. I think its dangerous to the breeds in that way as we all know there are a lot of players in this game that think like these are RL dogs or something as it is. I don't care if all the colors of my dogs change or not myself I just want the correct colors to match the genes + color name. I can always FH any that have a color I don't want thats how I feel about it I just know it needs to be fixed. Thanks for all your hard work I know its not easy

Actually Coop's color is not as rare as black and white and his mother was a dark seal while his father was a seal brindle. His maternal grandfather was the same color as he is, maternal grandmother and paternal grandfather was black and white and his paternal grandmother was a dark seal.. although it does occur more when a light brindle is bred to another light brindle.. it can also occur from a light brindle beind bred to a normal colored dog.. or in Coop's case 2 normal parents. In fact it is not really that rare I know of lots of them.. granted it is not preferred over black and seal and the brindled black and seal. There is no way to tell whether Coop is genetically black brindle or seal brindle. Basically since brindling is a pattern and not a color it "masks" the color underneath...at varying amounts it could be very little like the little dime size spot on my seal female (which technically makes her a seal brindle)... Coop just has so much brindle marking that it completely masks his base coat color. That is why he is registered as a brindle and white. Theoretically since it is a pattern and a dominant gene the brindle could be added on top of any base color though I have never seen a blue brindle, or a lilac brindle.. maybe since those colors are recessive and require 2 copies of the gene to express itself it cannot be present along with the dominant brindle marker.

I was assuming that the brindling gene varied greatly in expression- so what is labeled here as "Brindle and white" would be what you call "Black Brindle and White" Some dogs would be almost entirely black with a few brindle spots and others would look like the dog you posted- mostly red with brindle stripes. I am not aware of there being a known gene that controls how much tan vs black there is on a brindle dog.

I think there is likely a modifier, but have not seen any documentation at all as to what it might be, or how it works. To add one would be pure conjecture and quite likely, wrong.

I could label Brindle and White as KbrKbr (as it is currently listed) and add a new classification for Black Brindle and White as KKbr, which is currently labeled as black and white. I am not at all sure that this is correct genetically though.

Adding the new classification would also mean that we would need to label the other brindles accordingly- KKbr dogs who are blue, chocolate, red, or lilac would need to be labled as "Reverse Brindles" and KbrKbr dogs would remain as brindles.


Re: ch and pigment- ch is a dilution that effects ONLY tan pigment. It has a small effect on chocolate pigment. Here it is used to differentiate between chocolate and red and between honey and cream. In RL it would also lighten the tan in brindles and cause lighter fawns.

Chocolates, Reds, Blues, and Lilacs all have diluted pigments as a result of their primary mutation. Black pigmentation is (BB/Bb)(DD/Dd)
When B is diluted to b you get chocolate/ red pigment. Where the coat would be black, it turns chocolate/red. These dogs are (bb)(DD/Dd)
Where D is diluted to d you get blue pigment, and where the coat would be black it is blue. These dogs are (BB/Bb)(dd)
When you have BOTH dilutions b and d you get lilac pigmented and colored dogs. These dogs are (bb)(dd)

Honey and Cream is caused by the e mutation. All ee dogs are tan/yellow colored. Its what causes yellow labradors for instance. ee blocks any genes for dark hair that a dog may have. When it inherits ee any other colors or patterns it has are not expressed, it is always honey/cream. The exception here is in the nose and paw pads- these will have the same pigment as the dogs B and D genes dictate. This is why in labradors they avoid breeding chocolates to yellows- because you can end up with chocolate nosed yellows. So honeys and creams that have (BB/Bb)(DD/Dd) you have black noses, (bb)(DD/Dd) you have chocolate noses, (BB/Bb)(dd) you have blue noses, and (bb)(dd) you get lilac noses.

Fawn is different from honey/cream. Both are tan colored but they are caused by different genes. Honey/creams are caused by ee. They have NO dark hairs and are often born light and darken to their adult shade. Fawn pups are caused by the agouti locus (ay) which is expressed when a dog inherits kk. You need the possibility of kk because you need Kk to give seal in your breed. Fawn pups DO have black hairs. They are born with black overlay that recedes as the puppy gets older. As adults they may have black hairs on the head, ears, and back or they may lose all their black hairs completely. Of course, if the are bb the black hairs are chocolate/red, dd they are blue and bbdd they are lilac instead of black.

Does that helps explain it somewhat more?

I didn't really need it explained more. I had genetics in college when I got my animal management/nutrition degree. However since I own show and breed boston terriers I thought I would weigh in on the whole situation. Genetically speaking my dog is either a black brindle or a seal brindle.. however it is impossible to tell which just by looking at him... that is why the brindle and white option was added to the AKC reg color choices.....and so they are considered 2 seperate things...as you can see my dog is most obviously does not LOOK like a black brindle...

As for the fawns, honeys and creams... they are not a naturally occuring color in this breed, they are the result of breed outcrossing... I really feel the same goes for red, chocolate, blue and lilac as well since they were spontaneous "morphs" within the breed within the past few decades and that just does not happen without "outside" influence.

When it comes to the pigment gene all I said was that they ALWAYS have self colored pigment and cannot produce correct pigment unless bred to a dog with correct pigment.

I read where someone said Jeff put those colors in because bostons can be found in those colors... well German Shepherds and Dobermans come in white but I don't see those options in their breed list. I also didn't see merle Chihuahuas or Parti Poodles either. I didn't see the silver lab or the red Weimaraner.. I noticed the tricolored German Shepherd was also missing... these breeds can all be found in these colors yet they are not incorporated on this game... because they are not recognized to be shown (except for Merle Chis which are allowed to be shown in AKC)

And I definately didn't see brindle Pugs... which was also a color introduced to the breed by breed outcrossing to bostons, just the same as the cream, fawn, honey, blue, lilac and red in bostons... so why is it so important to have colors in bostons that are not even allowed to be registered with AKC or even recognized by ANY legitimate show registry in ANY country when it isn't the same for other breeds.

Jeff did not decide to put the non-standard colors in. He left each color code up to the individual breed in question. Some breeds chose to include nonstandard colors for various reasons. Some had to be included- such as double merles in merled breeds. Others added them simply because they do sometimes occur- like creams and chocolates in schipperkes or reds in Gordon Setters.

At the time that the Boston Terrier code was created, the majority of breeders wanted nonstandard colors included. I do not know if Jeff would be willing to remove them after the initial decision to include them. He said at the time that he would be reluctant to change color schemes at a later date. Someone could certainly ask, it wouldn't be hard to recode with only standard colors.

In the case of your breed, the color code that he used was different than the one agreed upon, and it has resulted in you losing the ability to create standard colors. Since that was his mistake, I think he would be willing to fix the errors that are causing the inability to create standard colors from the original color code.

You indicated in your post that you believed chocolate/blue/lilac/red dogs were chch dilute. I was merely explaining the ch does not cause the pigment dilution you remarked on, and that is why those colors are not coded as such.

I had composed a response to the comments. I held back posting it to see what other comments would be made.

Lilliput has pretty much said what I was going to say!

The dilutes - chocolate, blue, lilac - are very recessive. They may or may not have existed in the breed for a long time. They may have just started to appear due to a certain level of inbreeding, or they may be the result of foreign blood, or they may be spontaneous mutations.

This is a discussion! Ultimately, if Admin is willing, and there is a strong concensus, these dilutes could be removed - d,b,and e - all the blue, chocolate, red, lilac, honey, and cream would be gone. The fawn is a necessary evil if you want to recognise the seal colours.

And Brindle is a pattern and it has variable expression and there is no research identifying a cause that I have found either. If you want brindle and black brindle it will have to be fudged!



Edit: You might want to have a look at this sight - it deals with all breeds and in my opinion, seems quite good.

abnormality.purpleflowers.net/genetics/index.htm

Well Gaylan as your own link explains a black brindle is a REVERSE brindle... not brindle.. it is where the dog has heavy black striping. Now Coop does not look a thing like either of the frenchies shown... so it is obvious he doesn't have heavy black striping and therefor couldn't be considered a black brindle (reverse brindle)... he doesn't have a black hair on his body..and he is definately not a seal brindle either, that is why the boston breed developed the different qualification of brindle...


Since the boston was created in the United States... all bostons in other countries are descended from the US dogs... it is impossible to have blue, honey, red and cream variants as long as the dogs have been purebred. Even with blue, lilac, chocalate, red, honey cream and fawn being VERY recessive there is no way that they JUST started popping up within the past several years, I have NEVER heard of a show breeder producing a blue, lilac, cream, honey or fawn.. and I have only heard of 1 show breeder producing a litter of reds and that was because the dogs she used (from the same kennel who was found out to also have reds) ended up not being from the parents it had listed on its pedigree. So these cannot be recessive genes that are naturally present in the breed or it wouldn't be ONLY BYB's producing these colors, they would just be the only ones producing them intentionally.

I think we should just stick with the 4 AKC approved showable colors and leave the full brindle pattern out if it would be easier and less confusing. How hard would it be to just make a color model with only the 4 showable colors? Lets agree to disagree on the rare colors and leave them out this is a show dog game anyway. It would also prevent the current problem from happening again if we ask Jeff to fix this mistake with a much simpler color model that will give us 2 more colors that are showable then we have now. I know right now all the colors can be shown but how long before the showable colors get bred out by members that think they may be cute to do or whatever in RL they just don't show up in the breed the only thing that does just show up is to much white. I keep getting booted off the site so hopefully this post makes it Thank you all

quote

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posted by Little Devils Kennels
I think we should just stick with the 4 AKC approved showable colors and leave the full brindle pattern out if it would be easier and less confusing. How hard would it be to just make a color model with only the 4 showable colors? Lets agree to disagree on the rare colors and leave them out this is a show dog game anyway. It would also prevent the current problem from happening again if we ask Jeff to fix this mistake with a much simpler color model that will give us 2 more colors that are showable then we have now. I know right now all the colors can be shown but how long before the showable colors get bred out by members that think they may be cute to do or whatever in RL they just don't show up in the breed the only thing that does just show up is to much white. I keep getting booted off the site so hopefully this post makes it Thank you all

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Sounds good to me but brindle is also an AKC approved showable color as brindle is registered seperately from black brindle and seal brindle, but I am fine with dropping brindle altogether IF the "rare" colors are also dropped... if the rare colors are kept then I would rather all 5 standard colors be included in the color scheme also as that gives people like me who refuse to breed the colors that are not part of the purebred boston terrier's history more options to find correctly color dogs for sale and at stud. Right now out of 42 studs only 13 are either black and white or brindle and white and of those 13 two are starters, and one is almost solid green. Standard colors studs make up 1/4th of the stud choices out there when it should be the other way around. And don't even get me started on trying to find a quality standard colored dog/puppy for sale


Just my 2 cents

Perhaps you are reading the website differently to the way I do, but to quote:

"The French Bulldog on the left shows very heavy striping and appears almost completely black. This is sometimes called "black brindle" or "reverse brindle". "

Lilliput has looked and I have looked. Neither of us has found anything that even tries to explain why some brindles are heavily black stripped and others are predominantly tan. Please help out with this question by also doing some research. Perhaps you can come up with an answer. We can not code "black brindle" unless we have some genetic codes to use.

In my view, brindle is brindle - it's a pattern of somewhat randomly alternating black and tan stripes. Some individuals are more black than tan, others are more tan than black and a whole bunch fall somewhere in between.

I'd be quite happy with Devil's solution. It is becoming fairly obvious that it will be difficult to get agreement on the dilute colours.

Is there anyone out there who really wants to see these colours? My guess is not since we have only heard from folks who don't like them.

The only thing that I would add is that if you are going to include the seal colours, you must also include the possibility of fawn. Remember, back in the "old days" odd colours were usually quietly done away with. Fawn would be given a 0% for starters, which should mean that no one gets a fawn starter, but if you breed two seals, you may get fawn and the system will be able to handle it.

Now, do we wish to continue this debate or should we call on everyone with an interest in the ShowDog Boston to vote? These are the options as I see them. Anyone have any others?

1. Eliminate the b, d, and e from our model.

This would remove all possibility of chocolate, red, blue, lilac, honey, and cream. Since that only leaves the dominant forms, we might as well drop the loci entirely.

We may as well then remove the C locus too as it has no impact on the remaining loci - K. Hmm, this really simplifies things - one locus with three alleles.
K/K - black
K/kbr - black
kbr/kbr - brindle
K/ky - seal
kbr/ky seal brindle
ky/ky - fawn

2. Implement the current model (Lilliput's model) as is.

3. Implement Lilliput's model with some modification to the wording of the description. (I did make a version with some changes but I don't remember if I actually posted it (got booted off too).


With some hesitation . . .
4. Eliminate the b, d, and e from our model and add the S locus.

Ok by your standards my male Coop who is registered as brindle would be the same as a black brindle... and that is not the case he has no black fur on him anywher.. nor is he seal as his dark spots are much lighter then seal.. let me show you some examples of what I am trying to say.

All dogs are AKC champions BTW

Here is a seal dog


and a black and white dog



Here we have black brindle dogs




Here are seal brindle dogs




Finally these are brindle dogs.... please tell me how they are the same as black brindle or seal brindle?

Not to belabour the point, but unless someone can find a genetic cause for black brindle as opposed to regular brindle, we can call it black brindle and seal brindle if you like, but we can not differentiate.

quote

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posted by GaylanStudio7
since we have only heard from folks who don't like them.

The only thing that I would add is that if you are going to include the seal colours, you must also include the possibility of fawn. Remember, back in the "old days" odd colours were usually quietly done away with. Fawn would be given a 0% for starters, which should mean that no one gets a fawn starter, but if you breed two seals, you may get fawn and the system will be able to handle it.

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And I would disagree with this statement because in "modern days" breeders breed seal to seal all the time and they have never gotten a fawn. I believe that the fawn in boston terriers is more related to the cream/honey gene similar to the varying shades of yellow labradors.. you can get yellow labs that are almost white, and yellow labs that are as dark as say fawn boxers.

quote

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posted by GaylanStudio7
Not to belabour the point, but unless someone can find a genetic cause for black brindle as opposed to regular brindle, we can call it black brindle and seal brindle if you like, but we can not differentiate.

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Well obviously there is one or there wouldn't be a difference.. I am not a geneticist so I can't find the genetic cause... but I know there obviously has to be one. I am fine with leaving them as black brindle and seal brindle and just dropping "brindle and white" altogether.


I am also all for dropping the rare colors... even fawn because I do not believe it is related to the seal gene at all, but actually a variant of the wide array of shades you can get with the E locus.

As for the white gene it is true that producing half white faces is very common, and splashs is also possible but less common... however blue eyes is also prevalent in the breed and I see no reason to add either of these traits as neither of them are really predictable.. you can breed normal colored and normal eyed parents and still get half white faces or blue eyes... just as deafness is also prevalent in the breed. My male Coop is bilaterally deaf out of normal colored champion parents who have normal hearing. None of these traits are showable either so I am not a huge fan of adding any of them to a SHOWdog game. It would be different if the game had a standard that said splash dogs, deaf dogs and blue eyed dogs were disqualified.. but it doesn't.

I guess you guys all think I am being a harda** but as someone who owns and loves this breed I am trying my hardest in RL to preserve the breed to what it is supposed to be... and I honestly do no believe the rare colors are purebred. It is also my duty as a breeder/exhibitor to uphold the standard... and I just see that having these colors in a SHOWdog game is irresponsible.. and could be promoting these colors to people not familiar with the breed... which in turn promotes backyard breeders and puppymills since these are the only "breeders" that produce these colors.

I have to say that we just use the 4 Showable colors and leave the rest out as it causes to many problems and potential for abuse in RL not to mention the chance of another mistake happening so simple is often better I understand that code wise that basicly you would just re-name the current brindle to Black Brindle I'm ok with that. I understand that for some reason after all these years with all the boston breeders there are that are responsible that none have ever bothered to write down the genetic color code for the 5 showable colors. I have looked high and low even asked the boston terrier club no genetic color code is out there for this breed and seal is a boston color that other breeds do not have. Just like the Black Brindle color all other breeds that have brindle are always full brindle like the last pics that Jul posted even tho the last one that is very light does look almost fawn like the 1 fawn boston I've seen in RL a clue maybe but I don't think we are going to get the answers to that without some responsible breeders working on those color genetics that know this breed.

Now I do have to ask Jul you said your little Coop is deaf I hope your not planning on breeding him? That has been shown to be a genetic defect in the breed like the pattela and blue eyes problems I know it can skip generations but thats a chance I wouldn't take he's very cute by the way like my Dozer but Dozer is a black brindle but has the same body type like a little bear cub. Sorry I'm just always looking out for the breed even here in a game lol I would not breed Dozer because he has the pattela problem so his peas have been removed.

No Coop was neutered 6 months ago... about a month before I even had him BAER tested. I had him for several reasons as he grew and matured he sort of fell apart and was not the quality that I wanted to have in my breeding program. I had him evaluated by several longtime and well known breeders and it was a unanimous decision that he was obviously pet quality (well almost unanimous.. his breeder didn't agree). Then I discovered that he had an elongated soft palate that needed surgical repair.. I had his "jewels" removed at the same time. I had suspected that he was partially deaf from the time he was 6 months old... and did the testing just so that I could prove it to his breeder.


Julibras from another kennel

Thats good to hear sorry Coop can't but he's a lovely boy and a great companion anyway and I'm sure he will be a great uncle to other pups you will have. Sorry about his breeder but they do get prideful when it comes to the dogs they have bred hopefully they will not breed his parents anymore or find out which one is carrying the problem genes to cause all those problems the poor guy has now had to deal with but its all good now I hope for him. Sorry for jumping off topic Gaylan and everyone else

His mother was bred 2 more times but never took.. his sire had one litter before him, and the female from that litter has had a litter. The breeder kept his sister and has breeding plans for her this year , but as of right now there are only 2 intact descendants of his parents on the planet.. one daughter and one grandson.