.com Forum · Belgian Laekenois

So, does anyone know anything about the colors in Belgian Laekenois. I found this link on the AKC website www.akc.org/breeds/belgian_laekenois/color_markings.cfm

looks fairly straight forward to me. I'm going to do a little more research and then get back to you guys with an accurate code. The AKC registration options make a good guide, but are not always 100% accurate, so I'll look around a bit and then get started. -Neb

Ok, I've got a good idea of whats going on. The colors I've found in your breed are-

fawn/red
cream
mahognany/red
black
black and tan

I sourced that from- www.healthgene.com/canine/C128_belgian_shepherd_l.asp
www.bsca.info/research/DNAtesting.pdf (also states that C/ch is not responsible for shades of red, it could be caused by something called I, but it inherits exactly the same way, the only difference on showdog is the letter used)

I can't do 4 shades of red genetically. My guess is that red is used for both mahogany and fawn dogs. I would use cream, fawn, and mahognany as your red colors.

fawn/cream and mahogany also come with and without black masks

I can also find evidence for a short wire and a long wire coat present in your breed.

The big question is, do you want your dogs to have the ability to occasionally throw malinois, terv, and sheepdog pups? Because the breeds are so interrelated, and are still interbred in some areas of the world, litters do occassionaly throw these other coats. For show dog they would still be Laeks, just short or long haired ones (no wire).

The other question is, on the black and tans, do you want to distinguish between mahogany, fawn and cream pointed dogs?


To give you an idea of what you're working with your breed has-

Ay- fawn/cream/mahogany
at-black and tan
a- black

Em- mask
E- no mask

C-mahogany
Cch-fawn
chch-cream

L-short wire
ll-long wire

W- wire
w- no wire (if you choose to include the possibility of other shepherd types)

I have emailed some of our players and asked for input via this thread! I have also emailed one of the kennels which has helped out other breeds regarding the coding for colors.


Candi

I agree with Lilliput on going with only the three varieties. The only other way would be to call cece cream. In some breeds the extreme dilution does come out to be a shade of cream. However, to make things simpler I would just use the three shades. I know this summer when the conversation was in full swing about throwing the different coats there was no real decision made. I don't think Jeff ever voiced either way over whether or not there was going to be a possibility of producing the other coats, resulting in the other breeds. I almost wonder if it would be too difficult with the way the programming is currently set up for the game. The game would have to recognize that basically another breed could be produced. This may cause problems with other breed and could possibly provide a loophole in the program for crossbreeding of breeds. So I would probably suggest just having Short Wire or Long Wire. If breeders don't care about specifying the coat length, you could just specify the color and ignore the coat altogether.

just to clarify, from what I can tell, none of the Belgian breeds will be allowed to interbreed on Showdog.

What I was proposing was allowing both short and long coated non-wires in your code, as in RL, some Laeks will certainly carry them. In RL, if you get a black long hair, for instance, its not called a Laek, but a Belgian Shepherd. If you get a smooth coated dog, its a Mal. Both types could be born in RL litters. In RL, those pups are registered as the proper variety (shepherd, malinois or Terv). Here on SD, that would not be possible, and you would have simply a long haired Laek, or a smooth Laek.

As it is something that happens in RL, I think it adds a fun twist to the game, and keeps the game in line with RL. It is up to you as a breed though as to what coats you want introduced. We can do no coat types, short and long wire, or short and long wire, long haired, and smooth. -Neb

My own thoughts are to keep it simple and just have the long and short wire coats!
I'm guided by your expertise Lilliput!
Hopefully the few other kennels I notified will also join in here.

Candi

The other Belgian breeds just kept with their colors and coat textures, so let's just keep with rough coats. I don't think we should do black & tan, I'm sure that it is not a desirable color. So let's go with fawn, cream, mahogany and maybe gray. Also do we want to deal with amount of white and black masking? The Malinios went with it but the Tervuren left it out. I personally think we should go with it, just my input.

I'm also entirely certain that black and tan is an undesirable color. It is, however, common enough that you have a genetic test for it I think masks should be included in your code.

White markings, I think should be left out. Practically all belgian shepherds I have ever seen are solid colored. The small amount of white that was coded for in other breeds is not usually caused by genetics so much as being a normal variation (it is caused by the way pigment develops on a fetus- the color goes over the dog in a systematic way, but sometimes doesn't quite make it to the tip of the tail, the lower parts of the legs and the tip of the chest, giving small white marks) meaning a dog with a white chest spot can be genetically solid colored. If anyone has pictures of "irish spotted" blegians (collie markings), let me know and I might revise that position, but for nowq, I don't see evidence of genetic white in the breed.

I think recessive B&T and Black should be included as the do exist in RL. If you start them at 0%, they should not become a big problem in your breed, just an occasional surprise.

I'll wait for a few more responses before I begin coding. -Neb

I think we should include masks.... I'm not bothered about the white, if it's easier to leave it out, that's OK with me.

And if we do include black/black&tan, then give it the lowest percentage.

There are only a very small group of serious players in this breed. I've attemped to email them, so they are aware of this thread.

I say give it another 24 hours and then go ahead with the code!

Candi

I'm still against the black & tan. Liver and brindle are included in Belgian Tervurens and Malinois genetics, but both breeds left them out. Remember black and tan is a DQ and Jeff said color isn't included in the judging (at least for awhile) Let's just stay with colors that aren't a DQ (fawn, cream, mahogany, and gray.) I agree that we can leave the white out. So for possible outcomes I think we should have:

fawn no blackening
fawn with blackening

cream no blackening
cream with blackening

mahogany no blackening
mahogany with blackening

gray no blackening
gray with blackening

For percentages fawn(35%) and cream(35%) should have the most, then mahogany(25%), and gray(5%) should have the least. I think no blackening should be most common so maybe like 70% of all Laekenois should have blackening or something like that, because the pictures I've seen don't seem to have much blackening, but correct me if I'm wrong... Anyway these are just my suggestions!

Grey? I haven't seen anything about Grey Laeks. Do you have links? I'd need more info to know how to properly code them.

I also re-examined the AKC color list- it seems "cream" is an alternate color, so perhaps we should code Fawn, Red, and Mahogany?

I still think you should include blacks and B&Ts, if you start them at 0% (so no starter dog will ever be that color), they shouldn't occur often at all, it would be very rare. I recall Gordon Setters, for instance, took this option on "red" Gordons, which rarely show up in their breed. in my opinion, the idea is not to prevent potential DQ colors, but to keep it as realistic as possible. I will certainly follow your wishes on the matter though.

Get me some info on the grays, and i'll start work on your code. -Neb

Hmmmmm maybe gray isn't as common as I thought. I assumed they had it though because Malinios and Tervuren do... I did find some links that listed it as a color... but not sure how accurate they are.
www.dogchannel.com/dog-breeds/dog-breed-profiles/belgian-laekenois-dogs.aspx
www.dogchannel.com/dog-breeds/dog-breed-profiles/belgian-laekenois-dogs.aspx
greatbreeds.com/articles/belgian-laekenois.html

Maybe I was thinking of this picture when I said gray... Don't know how mixed that up LOL guess because I haven't seen it in a while.
www.gotpetsonline.com/pictures-gallery/dog-pictures-breeders-puppies-rescue/belgian-laekenois-pictures-breeders-puppies-rescue/pictures/belgian-laekenois-0002.jpg

So let's keep to fawn, cream, and mahogany then

Ok, here we go-

Em- mask
E- no mask

C-mahogany
Cch-red
chch-fawn

L-short wire
ll-long wire

Mahogany Short Wire w/ Mask
Em-/CC/L-

Mahogany Short Wire
EE/CC/L-

Red Short Wire w/ Mask
Em-/Cch/L-

Red Short Wire
EE/Cch/L-

Fawn Short Wire w/ Mask
Em-/chch/L-

Fawn Short Wire
EE/chch/L-

Mahogany Long Wire w/ Mask
Em-/CC/ll

Mahogany Long Wire
EE/CC/ll

Red Long Wire w/ Mask
Em-/Cch/ll

Red Long Wire
EE/Cch/ll

Fawn Long Wire w/ Mask
Em-/chch/ll

Fawn Long Wire
EE/chch/ll

I think from my reading of the links, the grey mentioned is just a normal variation of the sabling look- fawns will often look like they have some grey due to the dilution.

I chose fawn over cream for your lightest color, as the AKC marks red, mahogany, and fawn as standard colors, and B&T and cream as alternatives, leading me to think fawn is likely the proper color name. Does that look good? -Neb

Sounds good from here!
What about percentages?? You guys have done all the research, I'm just a dummy who wanted to give one of the new breeds a go....lol

Candi

Yeah that sounds great! Thanks Lilliput. So for percentages maybe

mahogany short wire w/ mask (10%)

mahogany short wire (15%)

red short wire w/ mask (10%)

red short wire (16%)

fawn short wire w/ mask (10%)

fawn short wire (20%)

mahogany long wire w/ mask (2%)

mahogany long wire (3%)

red long wire w/ mask (2%)

red long wire (4%)

fawn long wire w/ mask (3%)

fawn long wire (5%)

I made the long wire less common because I have never seen one with longer fur before, so I'm guessing its not as common... Tell me what you think of this.

actually, from the pictures I've seen, i think most would qualify as long wire?

I based that bit on my experience in Dachshunds, they have wire coats and soft wire. The wire coats are mostly short all over, with a beard. The soft wires, which are like your long wires, have hair that is a few inches long (maybe 2?). It looks a little unruly and can have a tiny bit of curl. Most of the Laek pictures I've seen qualify as the second definition. I've seen only a handful that look shortwire- the look more like a malinois with some wirey hairs thrown in. -Neb

Okay so I found this link that has a few different Laekenois pictures on it.
www.midcoast.com/~classic/cymbals.html

So the dog called Ushas is what I was thinking of for short and what I think you are thinking of for long. When you scroll down farther there are some more pics and I take it you were thinking of that for short? And when you go down to the bottom there is a pic of what I was thinking of for long hair, except I didn't know it could be that long... So I think we should leave out the really long haired dog and just have your version of short and long.


mahogany short wire w/ mask (2%)

mahogany short wire (3%)

red short wire w/ mask (2%)

red short wire (4%)

fawn short wire w/ mask (3%)

fawn short wire (5%)

mahogany long wire w/ mask (10%)

mahogany long wire (15%)

red long wire w/ mask (10%)

red long wire (16%)

fawn long wire w/ mask (10%)

fawn long wire (20%)

Hows that?

yes, the dog "ushas" was what I was thinking of as long, and then most of the dogs below her are what I would consider short. I had no idea they could come as long as the last one, my guess is most don't and its from the added Terv blood that the coat got quite THAT long, lol. -Neb

So, I guess I should chime in since I have seen the dogs mentioned in person !-)

Ushas is from European Laekenois lines. This is the typical length for a Laeken coat. You are correct that her offspring received the coat length from the inter variety breeding with the Tervuren. What is interesting about this breeding is that Splash received more of the coat that I have seen with the Laeken X Malinois breedings.

However when Spalsh was breed back to a Laeken line, the coats were a more appropriate length; www.midcoast.com/~classic/lighthouse.html. I see one of these offspring, Xander, a few times a year. And his coat is the appropriate color and length.

More pictures of Laekenois can be found on this web site, winjammer.brinkster.net/

Disclaimer:
This links have been posted as references not as endorsements of any of the breeding programs.

thanks for the post and the pictures. Since you've seen Laeks in person, would you agree that there are long and short wires? I haven't seen it written down, thats only an observation from the photos I've seen. So, if you feel it is incorrect, do let me know. Since the Laeks are FSS, and their parent club site is down, I've had a hard time finding breed specific info. -Neb