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Author Topic : Cane Corse Breed Color / Distribution
 Maebe
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4/29/2008 12:23:04 PM reply with quote send message to Maebe Object to Post   

I don't know how long it'll take Jeff to get around to our breed, but here is some info I found:

From the Cane Corse Association Of America Breed Standard:
www.canecorso.org/standard.htm

Acceptable colors are black, lighter and darker shades of gray, lighter and darker shades of fawn, and red. Brindling is allowed on all of these colors. Solid fawn and red, including lighter and darker shades have a black or gray mask; it does not go beyond the eyes. There may be a white patch on the chest, throat, chin, backs of the pasterns, and on the toes. Disqualification: Any color with marking pattern as seen in black and tan breeds.

From The Cane Corse Pedigree Database for FCI Registered Dogs:
(www.canecorsopedigree.com/modules/animal/advanced.php)

Here is the distribution percentage:
6438 Unknown
1737 Brindle
883 Black
355 Blue
217 Blue Brindle
213 Fawn
77 Fawn Black Mast
45 Fawn Blue Mask
34 Red Black Mask
21 Red
2 Not recognized color
1 Red Blue Mask
 Dixie Canes
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5/4/2008 9:26:53 PM reply with quote send message to Dixie Canes Object to Post

Thanks for taking the time to look that up. It will be useful info.
 Kingdom Cane Corso
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5/8/2008 2:28:47 AM reply with quote send message to Kingdom Cane Corso Object to Post

I dont think I've ever seen a red with blue mask before..
 Dracarys
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5/8/2008 6:10:19 AM reply with quote send message to Dracarys Object to Post

i think it's same as darker fawn pigmentation only with grey mask
not sure if i ever saw one but ok lol
we also got the non mask fawn, i think they allowed to bred in italy but considered pet quality in any other place
 Maebe
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5/8/2008 12:20:28 PM reply with quote send message to Maebe Object to Post

Feel free to alter the info I've found, it's just info I found on the net, couldn't find anything else on the distribution!

I'm just excited to see what colors all my dogs turn out to be! I just hope they don't all turn out black like the labs! But I think we are low enough in the generations that we'll still have a big variety!
 Kingdom Cane Corso
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5/15/2008 12:34:30 AM reply with quote send message to Kingdom Cane Corso Object to Post

Me too!

Is the coloring/genetics stuff going to be like totally accurate? Like A Dominant Black: produces a solid color (ie. black, chocolate or blue)... Dominant Yellow - Produces reds and buckskins.... Or is it just going to be random coloring?

 Maebe
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5/15/2008 12:35:58 PM reply with quote send message to Maebe Object to Post

quote
posted by Kingdom Cane Corso
Me too!

Is the coloring/genetics stuff going to be like totally accurate? Like A Dominant Black: produces a solid color (ie. black, chocolate or blue)... Dominant Yellow - Produces reds and buckskins.... Or is it just going to be random coloring?


He assigns each of the source dogs with a random color based on the percentage distrubution of the breed. Then his 'color engine' figures out the genetics of all the breedings that have been done and assigns all of the multigenerational dogs their colors. The color that shows up it only the phenotypical color, it doesn't tell you the genotype. For example, a black dog could be a homozygous black, or it could carry the recessive gene for another color; you'll have to figure that out with test matings.
 Dracarys
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5/15/2008 1:51:31 PM reply with quote send message to Dracarys Object to Post

will we have disqualifing colours like any normal standart?
 Maebe
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6/27/2008 1:24:01 PM reply with quote send message to Maebe Object to Post

quote
posted by Dracarys
will we have disqualifing colours like any normal standart?
I'm not sure, as Jeff has avoided answering that question, although there has been much discussion in breeds such as the Boxer. We'll have to wait and see what he decides as to wether or not it will make the game "too hard".
 Maebe
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6/27/2008 1:25:23 PM reply with quote send message to Maebe Object to Post

I've done some research into the genetics of the colors in the Corsos, and here's what I have come up with: (This is for the colored part of the dog only, excluding white markings)

B locus
B Black
b red -all shades of red and fawn fall under here

D locus
D full pigment
d dilute(blue)

Se locus OR Em Locus
Se mask Em mask
se no mask E no mask

K locus
kbr brindle
k normal

So, putting together the percentages with the pheno and genotypes:
48.5% Red Brindle bb D- -- kbr-
24.6% Black B-D- -- kk
9.9% Blue B- dd -- kk
6.5% Red bb -- E- kk
6.1% Blue Brindle B- dd -- kbr-
3.1% Red Black Mask bb D- Em-
1.3% Red Blue Mask bb dd Em- kk

Hope I haven't made any mistakes, please feel free to add your questions/comments!




 Dracarys
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6/27/2008 1:26:29 PM reply with quote send message to Dracarys Object to Post

i think the standart that should be used is what writen in italy, max the one of FCI since they come closer to him that the AKC one
 Maebe
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6/27/2008 1:34:55 PM reply with quote send message to Maebe Object to Post

Here's the FCI standard for reference:

Color :
Black, lead-grey, slate-grey, light grey, light fawn; stag red and dark fawn; brindle(stripes on different shades of fawn or grey); in fawn colored and brindle dogs the black or grey mask on the muzzle should not go beyond the line of the eyes. A small white patch on the chest, on the tips of the feet and on the bridge of the nose
is acceptable.

So basically the main difference is that of the terms. What some call "blue" would be the same as the lead-grey, slate-grey and light grey. What some call "red" is the blanket term for the light fawn, stag red, dark fawn, etc.
I'm sure Jeff will allow us to use the terminology we prefer as breeders.
So, any opinions?
"Blue" or "Grey"
AND
"Red" or "Fawn"

 Dracarys
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6/27/2008 3:33:07 PM reply with quote send message to Dracarys Object to Post

fawn for sure
and grey not blue, i was almost biten with a stick when called a corso blue next to a breeder LOL
 CrosstheLine
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6/27/2008 9:20:44 PM reply with quote send message to CrosstheLine Object to Post

This is from a thread that I had with my other kennel, Straightedge Kennel, it is a template for staffie color genetics...

(taken from another post)I think I might have it...

The way this set of genetics works is that all dogs start off as Red. There are 3 different alleles to modify the coat color
D: no modification
dr: dilutes only the red coat (turning it fawn)
d: dilutes both red and black coat color (fawn with blue)

The mask and brindling (solid black) genes work same as before. And like before solid black is dominant over red (masking gene), but a homozygous dd will turn black blue (but drdr or drd will do nothing to black).

So the color combos available (and the number of genetic combinations that will give you that color) are:

Red---------------------------------3
Red with black mask------------6
red brindle--------------------------6
red brindle with black mask---12

Total red---------------------27

Fawn--------------------------------2
Fawn with black mask----------4
Fawn brindle----------------------4
Fawn brindle with black mask--8

Total fawn--------------------18

Fawn bluie------------------------1
Fawn bluie with blue mask----2
Blue brindle------------------------2
Blue brindle with blue mask---4
Blue---------------------------------9

Total Fawn Bluie/Blue---------18

Total Black-----------------------45
(includes black brindle and black with black mask)

Then the white markings are a masking gene so they are really easy to put in over the color gene (because the dilution gene doesnt affect the white).
In total there are 108 different combinations with Red being dominant over fawn (and fawn bluie) and solid black (brindle?) being dominant over red (but black will turn to blue with the dilution gene).
So you could never get a black or brindle dog from any double solid red or fawn (or fawn bluie) breeding.
You need at least one blue or black dog in a breeding to get solid blue or black.
And red can be a fawn carrier, fawn can't be a red carrier. Black can carry either red or fawn.

Let me know what you think and I'll post the list of genetic codes for each color. We also don't need to use the term "fawn bluie" It's just how I distinguish a diluted red and black color. Fawn bluies will never have a black mask. Blue brindles are actually fawn bluie brindles, but most people know them as blue brindles.
Please remember that most of these genetics are made up (using as much know facts as possible). What I am trying to do is make a simplified genetic code that follows real life as closely as possible,ie. in real life if you breed two fawns can you ever get a black dog?
But this is in now way "true" genetics.

Straightedge Kennel (end of other post)


This is what I came up with in my other kennel for Staffie Bulls. I know there are some color names that won't do for Cane Corsos, but "fawn bluie" is basically a fawn dog with blue markings (brindling or mask).
The one problem with making red a recessive trait to black is it is very easy to loose red all together.
The fawn bluie could be fawn and fawn with blue mask.
Let me know what you think

CrosstheLine
 CrosstheLine
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6/27/2008 9:24:37 PM reply with quote send message to CrosstheLine Object to Post

This is a link to the original thread
www.showdog.com/login/Breeds/philboard_read.aspx?id=106853

it goes into a little more detail in how I came up with this template

CrosstheLine
 Maebe
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6/28/2008 12:53:23 PM reply with quote send message to Maebe Object to Post

Good Job, That's a lot more in depth than the basics I had! From the pugs(?) I think, that they had decided to keep it simple and just stick with one color for the red/fawns, but I like this. More colors we get to work with!
I don't know if Jeff has done any work with the white marked breed yet, I assume he'll get the solid ones done first and then tackle these, but we'll see!
 Maebe
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6/28/2008 1:38:52 PM reply with quote send message to Maebe Object to Post

I guess then it's also up for discussion wether it's the B-Dominant Black on the B locus gene (like the pugs), or the K-Dominant Black on the K-locus that causes the black color. Either or produces the same results, it's just depends on the theory you endorse.
 Dracarys
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6/28/2008 1:49:37 PM reply with quote send message to Dracarys Object to Post

well in corso it's another problem for colour
for exsampla from breeding two fawns you may get blacks, grey, fawns or ven brindles but most likely fawns or black
grey in corso is delluted black
mask teoreticly is on all the pigments but must be seen in brindles and fawns, in blacks and greys it's part of the fur colour
the black brindle colour is not B&T but brindle on black
anyway i whole fun LOL if we go according to what happens, but if we go according to all breeds the genetics will look different from RL ( maybe? )
anyway did anybody understand me?
 Maebe
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6/28/2008 2:47:23 PM reply with quote send message to Maebe Object to Post

I think I get what you're trying to say. Yes, the colors in Corso's are different that the colors in other breeds, but the genetic basis is the same. If you cross a fawn boxer with a fawn corso (ok, stick with me, I'm not endorsing cross breeding !) you will get fawn puppies. Not brindles, not blacks, not greens or purples. The genes that causes the body of a Boxer to be fawn is the same gene as the one that causes the Corso to be fawn.
Every single dog has 78 chromosomes, and each chromosome holds many genes. Each dog has genes at each locus, they can't have just nothing. In breeds where there are only a few accepted colors, most members of that breed are homozygous. For example, a breed such as the pug does not have the d-dilution gene. All members of the German Shepherd breed, for example, have the DD conformation, and thus there are no blues. Some of the breeds that do have the dilution gene, Chow Chows, Whippets, Afghan Hounds, Weimeraner, Great Dane, they ALL have the SAME d-dilution gene causing that gery-blue color of their coat.
Hope this answers your question!
 Dracarys
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6/29/2008 3:14:52 AM reply with quote send message to Dracarys Object to Post

hmm somhow
but again to cross fawn boxer or fawn pug willl give you most likly fawn litter
to cross fawn corso with a fan corso can give you most likly fawn litter or black litter or even brindle litter you never know
for exsample look at this RL litter :
www.canecorsopedigree.com/modules/animal/pedigree.php?pedid=9335

angel is a fawn dog out of all but 1 fawn litter, the 1 was brindle
her mom pretty is brindle, both her perents brindle, idra brindle, july and cheno black brindle

ultimo is formantino ( fawn with blue mask ) his sire formantino out of formantino and grey perents
his mom luna us brindle out of grey and brindle perents

pretty produced before grey and brindle pupps with black brindle dog
with timo she gave 10 ( 7 alive ) 1 brindle and all the rest fawns
 Dracarys
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6/29/2008 3:25:55 AM reply with quote send message to Dracarys Object to Post

ok i read again what i wrote just wanted to point that this breed colours going a littel bit different
i'm not trying to make things more complicated, i just argue to argue i guess lol
and i'll be happy with what ever colour genetic jeff does happy :)

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