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Author Topic : Weave Pole Training
 Everdale Goldens
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12/17/2013 7:06:50 PM reply with quote send message to Everdale Goldens Object to Post  

Which method do you use or like the best? Why? I'm starting to teach one of my young dogs. Thanks! happy :)
 Canis Lupis Kennels
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12/17/2013 10:25:56 PM reply with quote send message to Canis Lupis Kennels Object to Post

I know a lot of people swear by channels, but I personally find it most effective doing it the good old fashioned way -- lead 'em through on leash and treat. That's how I trained my one golden bitch, and most trials she never pops a single weave. This can be a HUGE benefit in competition because so many dogs NQ because they so consistently pop weaves. Also, when training weaves, go for accuracy before you go for speed -- it's when you factor in speed that most dogs start popping. It's better to lose a little time and Q than to have fast weaves that you end up popping (resulting in an NQ). Just take it slow. Also (and this is something a lot of people don't think about) how old is your dog? If s/he is under a year don't work them on the weaves too hard. The swiveling motion of the hips that goes on when a dog is maneuvering weaves set at standard length can be harmful if the dog is not fully grown. People always seem to remember not to work young dogs on contacts, but they tend to forget that the weaves can be dangerous too. That's not to say you can't work a young dog on weaves, just don't work them too hard.

Also -- and this is just speaking from my own experience -- most channel trained dogs I've met are BAD weave poppers. I think it's because the dog tends to focus less on where it's going when it's simply following channels so that when the channels are gone that mentality carries over. Whereas when you bait the dog through they are focused on where they are positioning themselves because that could mean the difference between a "good boy!" and a "let's try again".

Hope that helped. Good luck and happy training!
 griffin
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12/18/2013 3:03:53 AM reply with quote send message to griffin Object to Post

I disagree with the above, I find bait lead dogs are slow and often have a hard time developing consistent footwork later. They can also become side-dependent if you're not careful and will only do the weaves correctly if you are on one side of the weaves which is a major handicap when you get to harder courses.

Most dogs when doing the weaves at speed either hop (front feet and back feet together hoping side to side through the weaves) or single-step (push off with a single foot to change direction between each pole). But when they are going through the weaves slowly following a bait they do neither of these. Also highly food motivated dogs often won't think about what they are actually doing when following a bait.

I find a combination of clicker training and either channel or weave-o-matic works well. Channel or weave-o-matic are great for teaching speed and foot work but don't teach the concept of weaving or the weave entry. Where as clicker training is great for teaching entries and the concept but you have to be quite skilled at clicker training to teach footwork with it.

grif,
 Everdale Goldens
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12/18/2013 7:22:55 AM reply with quote send message to Everdale Goldens Object to Post

Yes I don't agree with Canis Lupis either. I would never use that method of luring with a treat. It just doesn't teach the dog the proper footwork and they become very side dependent. I have used the weave-o-matic method with my other dogs and it worked well but I was thinking about trying the channel method. My agility trainer uses a channel method with lattice barriers attached to the pole. I think it really helps the dogs learn the footwork and I could see my dog hopping through even after his first few tries at the weave poles. Anyone have experience using this type of barrier method? I had never seen it before until she introduced it during class. She said she doesn't like the wires because it's so easy for dogs to go under or over the wires. Although I might consider using wires after my dog learns the initial concept of weaving.
 tomcat1
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12/18/2013 7:38:02 AM reply with quote send message to tomcat1 Object to Post

this post has been edited 1 time(s)

I've taught mine on V weaves happy :) www.doggyjumps.com/catalog/product.php?CI_ID=35&Item=%27Dog%20Agility%20V%20Weaves%20%27


You start with the poles fairly flat and have the dog on the lead and drive them through to a toy, and over time you straighten up the weaves to be upright happy :)

Teaches them footwork, to look where they are going AND its easy happy :)

I did mine on lead til they would drive for the toy on the weaves being pretty flat, then lost the lead as we slowly straightened up. I run on both sides in training happy :)

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Last edited by tomcat1 on 12/18/2013 7:39:16 AM
 Templar Knights
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12/18/2013 9:25:25 AM reply with quote send message to Templar Knights Object to Post

I'm a novice, but the trainer we work with swears by 2 by 2 method. She did weave-o-matic with her one border collie and 2by2 with the second, and she noticed that she always gets the correct approach from the 2by2 dog, as well as speed. The weaveomatic border needs more information to ensure a correct approach. Our lab and shih tzu both have taken pretty well to the 2 by 2 approach, but neither one is ever going to be a FAST dog.
 JLK Goldens
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12/18/2013 1:38:49 PM reply with quote send message to JLK Goldens Object to Post

I have to agree with canis lupis I taught my girl the lure didnt lead her through just lured and she is a great weaver and extremely fast she can do 12 weaves in 3 seconds so I would say it has not hurt her speed at all and weaves are her favorite obstacle. Here are some videos of how I trained her and what her weaves looked like through training she also developed perfect hoping technique and like I said she is far from slow on the weaves. I started young but they where spaced where she didnt have to twist and she only got worked a few times a day maybe 3 or 4 runs at most.

Jana

www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFPHf2wyZBQ

Day 3
www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBGkriSrwp4

After a hard winter off since we can only train outdoors
www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1aKYW59lpo


After 6 months off no training at all in that time
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nc21G6-uUQw

First time ever doing table/weave combos
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wfq54_sydO0

This was this past summer I made a set of channels was going to use that method to teach my golden boy but have decided to use the same as I did for molly the only reason she has ever popped a tunnel was she was going to fast and missed the entrance for the next one she has great weaves.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ufw_VxkcHI

Jana
 GaylanStudio9
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12/18/2013 1:51:29 PM reply with quote send message to GaylanStudio9 Object to Post

Ok, just curious about terminology.

I know what the weave thing is about, but what is "popping", "channels", "weave-o-matic"?

 Canis Lupis Kennels
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12/18/2013 1:58:11 PM reply with quote send message to Canis Lupis Kennels Object to Post

quote
posted by griffin
I disagree with the above, I find bait lead dogs are slow and often have a hard time developing consistent footwork later. They can also become side-dependent if you're not careful and will only do the weaves correctly if you are on one side of the weaves which is a major handicap when you get to harder courses.
I guess every dog's an individual. My girl, though, has very good footwork, nice out-weaves, and will send to and complete weaves at twenty feet (In UKC AGIII the weaves are taped off at six feet). I can also rear cross her while she's IN the weaves and she never pops, which can be troubling for a lot of dogs. So I don't believe all bait lead dogs have trouble with those things, it all depends and the method of bait and lead you use (yes, there are different methods).

I also tend to believe you need to judge your method of training on the individual dog. You can try more than one method -- what one does your dog react the best to? I, personally, am a firm believer in bait and lead. All my dogs have been trained that way, they all have nice weaves, and that's how I'm going to train my next dog (providing they take to it).
 Canis Lupis Kennels
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12/18/2013 2:03:09 PM reply with quote send message to Canis Lupis Kennels Object to Post

quote
posted by GaylanStudio9
Ok, just curious about terminology.

I know what the weave thing is about, but what is "popping", "channels", "weave-o-matic"?


popping-the dog skips a pole or exits the weaves entirely without completing them

channels-wires set between weaves for the dogs to follow and learn how to maneuver the weave poles(a method of training)

weave-o-matic- weaves staggered so the dog can walk/run straight through. When training with a weave-o-matic you slowly unstagger the weaves (kind of a way of easing the dog into learning to weave)
 Canis Lupis Kennels
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12/18/2013 2:03:16 PM reply with quote send message to Canis Lupis Kennels Object to Post

this post has been edited 1 time(s)

double post

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Last edited by Canis Lupis Kennels on 12/18/2013 2:03:59 PM
 Everdale Goldens
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12/18/2013 2:19:51 PM reply with quote send message to Everdale Goldens Object to Post

Everyone has their own preferred method. I appreciate everyone sharing. happy :)

Personally I don't like the luring method but that's just me. Glad it has worked for some of your dogs. This dog I'm beginning to train is extremely food motivated so like grif mentioned, he probably won't pay attention to his footwork and will be too focused on the food. I think I probably will end up doing the channel method.

So would love to hear advice on the channel method. happy :) My agility trainer uses straight weave poles and attaches lattice to the poles to create a channel. It's a different way of doing it but I liked it and it seemed to work for my dog. I had never seen it done that way before so wondering if anyone has seen/heard of this?
 JLK Goldens
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12/18/2013 3:06:05 PM reply with quote send message to JLK Goldens Object to Post

I have made and sold channel weaves this is the way mine look although I use the lure method not channel my girl hated channel and 2X2 the lure method (which you faze out the lure to just vocal) method worked best for us. I will also include a good channel weave video off youtube.

Jana






This gal has tons of videos on doing channel weaves.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-nkGdFa5Vw

I think honestly the best method for anyone is what there dog does best with my dog did not do well with channels or 2X2's she hated them but loves the lure method so thats what we use I am a new agility competitor and my girl has been 100% trained by me and we have made mistakes here and there but I have tried to make my training methods what she works with best not what works for everyone else I find in the end it makes us both happier.

Jana
 Grayvuren
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12/18/2013 3:29:39 PM reply with quote send message to Grayvuren Object to Post

quote
posted by Canis Lupis Kennels

channels-wires set between weaves for the dogs to follow and learn how to maneuver the weave poles(a method of training)

weave-o-matic- weaves staggered so the dog can walk/run straight through. When training with a weave-o-matic you slowly unstagger the weaves (kind of a way of easing the dog into learning to weave)

Actually channels have the poles moved away from the center line. The dogs run through the "channel." The poles are gradually moved closer together as the dog progresses. They can be trained with or without guide wires or barriers.

For Weave-o-matice imagine the poles pulled down to form a V at the center line. The dog runs through the poles. The poles are gradually raised as the dog progresses until they are eventually upright.

Trained first few dogs by luring through the poles. Had slow weaves. Next two dogs trained with channels. Much faster weaving. Young dog is now learning with weave-o-matic. Poles are not yet upright. May do 2 x 2 with next dog for a challenge and to see which method I like the best. Of course by then there will probably be new weave teaching method....
 Canis Lupis Kennels
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12/18/2013 3:32:42 PM reply with quote send message to Canis Lupis Kennels Object to Post

quote
posted by Grayvuren
quote
posted by Canis Lupis Kennels

channels-wires set between weaves for the dogs to follow and learn how to maneuver the weave poles(a method of training)

weave-o-matic- weaves staggered so the dog can walk/run straight through. When training with a weave-o-matic you slowly unstagger the weaves (kind of a way of easing the dog into learning to weave)

Actually channels have the poles moved away from the center line. The dogs run through the "channel." The poles are gradually moved closer together as the dog progresses. They can be trained with or without guide wires or barriers.

For Weave-o-matice imagine the poles pulled down to form a V at the center line. The dog runs through the poles. The poles are gradually raised as the dog progresses until they are eventually upright.

Trained first few dogs by luring through the poles. Had slow weaves. Next two dogs trained with channels. Much faster weaving. Young dog is now learning with weave-o-matic. Poles are not yet upright. May do 2 x 2 with next dog for a challenge and to see which method I like the best. Of course by then there will probably be new weave teaching method....

Duh, you're right with the channels. And that's what I was trying to say with the weave-o-matic (you worded it much better though)
 griffin
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12/18/2013 3:39:10 PM reply with quote send message to griffin Object to Post

this post has been edited 1 time(s)

Different Methods I've heard of:

Channels: weave poles are verticle but stagger apart so initially the dog just has to run straight through a 'channel' down the middle of the weave pole. Gradually the poles are moved closer together so the dog has to bend & bounce more and more to get through the weaves. Eventually the poles are in a straight line.

Weave-o-matic: Poles are in a wide 'V' shape so the dog just has to run down the centre of the V to do them correctly gradually the tilt on the poles is reduced until they are perfectly vertical

2x2/clicker : start with just two poles and clicker train the dog to go through them from left to right (like the entry to the weaves. Next add a wrap around the second pole. Next add a second pair of poles some distance away gradually moved closer and closer until in line with the first two poles etc.. until you get to 12 poles.

wire/barrier : These are based on the same principle but people use different types of barrier. The principle is to use some kind of barrier to force the dog to follow the correct path through the weaves. Gradually the barriers are removed. I've seen wires used (they only seem to work on mid sized dogs, large dogs get tangled in them and start jumping over them and small dogs go under them. I've heard of box-ish things creating a maze-like structure.

Lureing/guiding : using nose-touches or baits to guide the dog through the weaves, gradually fading the bait.

It is certainly possible to get fast accurate weaves with any of the methods but each has their advantages and disadvantages. I had a small dog and there was no way she was going to get the foot work using luring (she was taking 3 steps between each gap in the poles). We also tried using wires but she just ducked under them or jumped over them. We ended up mostly using channels because they were easiest to build. But she when she had trouble with entries we did a little bit of 2x2. In the end she could get entries >90 degrees and once in the weaves she would complete them independently of my position and at a distance of ~20'.

grif,

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Last edited by griffin on 12/18/2013 3:48:02 PM
 Canis Lupis Kennels
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12/18/2013 3:55:22 PM reply with quote send message to Canis Lupis Kennels Object to Post

the 2x2/clicker method I've always found interesting, though I've never tried it with any of my dogs. Has anyone here trained their dogs that way? One of my friends did and their dogs have very nice weaves.

One of her dogs training 2x2 (the dog in this video has unfortunately passed away)-www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKHMr8ZZln8

She also does channels, though the particular dog in this video ended up being too slow (not on her weaves, just overall, didn't really like agility)www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkrbpc7cNRU

And then here's weave training with one of her borders, who I'm pretty sure was originally trained on barriers -www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSxr0v1Bolc

This is sort of the idea i'm trying to convey -- three different dogs, three different methods, same trainer, and all were taught good weaves.
 Everdale Goldens
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12/18/2013 6:11:58 PM reply with quote send message to Everdale Goldens Object to Post

Love your channel weaves Jana! Nice job building them. happy :)

Grif--my agility trainer uses the barrier method with lattice attached to the poles. I liked the idea of it and it really teaches the dogs the path and the footwork. I will probably either use this method or the channel.
 JLK Goldens
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12/18/2013 8:29:35 PM reply with quote send message to JLK Goldens Object to Post

quote
posted by Canis Lupis Kennels
the 2x2/clicker method I've always found interesting, though I've never tried it with any of my dogs. Has anyone here trained their dogs that way? One of my friends did and their dogs have very nice weaves.

One of her dogs training 2x2 (the dog in this video has unfortunately passed away)-www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKHMr8ZZln8


I think it all depends on your dog I know a lot of dogs are trained with 2X2 its kinda the craze right now I think but honestly my dog hated it for mine luring and then adding her word and fazing out the lure was the best way another dog that might not work but for my girl it did and she got the footwork beautifully and loves the weaves.

Jana
 
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12/19/2013 12:32:31 AM reply with quote send message to Object to Post edit post

My girls were both trained on channels with wires attached... wires were faded as soon as possible as my first dog didn't really find them helpful and my second dog started getting dependent on them to find her entrance and exit (became a problem when I'd start to fade the wires and she'd start entering the weaves wherever was directly before the wires started) .

Some of our weaves:
My young'n 4th weekend out and currently running Open STD, super fast and hard entry into the weaves: www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUZzNl6uez4

My young'n weaving and sticking her exit while I start a hard pull away: www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8YMQfCf8Jw

My first agility dog running Masters, layering a jump to the weaves and a hard blind cross at the exit as she's finishing weaving: www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4uCnz-80hE

First girl again, my leaving her in the weaves and running the OPPOSITE direction: www.youtube.com/watch?v=kukwMcposR4

And again, a very independent entry and exit while I go taking off down the line to get ahead: www.youtube.com/watch?v=fD8P5eXWXYw

I personally like channels taught as a trick (builds independence from the start) meaning that the goal is to run through FAST and not care what the person is doing cause all the dog is focused on is getting through and chasing their reward down (typically a toy or sometimes running to a target/food bag), fun challenges are to find the entrance from any location/angle and eventually to stick to running through no matter where your person is heading. I *have* noticed that my young'n has some crazy footwork going on right now, doesn't slow her down but I'm also not worried about making it "proper" because I think she'll figure out a comfortable rhythm as she gains experience and self-confidence. I think if I were to try to slow her down to get consistent footwork that she'd start overthinking the weaves and stressing about getting them "right" as she's quite a worrisome girl by nature.

I've heard good things about the gate/barrier method and I've witnessed the end-results of some EXCELLENT 2x2 method dogs. I do tend to hear that 2x2 dogs can find their entrance like crazy however may have a tendency to not learn to collect while getting in the entrance and so can pop out soon after entering the weaves... I think this probably goes away with some experience though.



TCrown happy :)
 Everdale Goldens
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12/19/2013 8:53:33 AM reply with quote send message to Everdale Goldens Object to Post

Thank you TCrown! You have some great running dogs! I always love seeing your videos. happy :) Thank you for sharing. I think I will give the channel weaves a try! Looks like it will be the best method for my dog and I think he will respond well to this method. I appreciate all of the advice. happy :)

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