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Showdog.com Forum · Real Show Dogs

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Author Topic : Hypothetical question
 Clumberjack Kennels
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12/18/2013 2:34:26 PM reply with quote send message to Clumberjack Kennels Object to Post  

I am looking for opinions on the following hypothetical issue.

You gave a bitch (at no charge including shipping) to the owner of the sire with a contract giving you a 2nd pick puppy back at no cost except shipping. The bitch is bred and there are 4 puppies.There are only 2 show prospects both females...picks are made. Then at 8 weeks the 1st pick puppy fails a health test. So naturally 2nd pick now becomes first pick however instead of keeping the 1st pick puppy the breeder is offering to someone else to fulfill another agreement because their other litter didn't take. How do you feel? Should the only show prospect have been offered to the previous owner of the bitch if the breeder isn't keeping it themselves? Or since the 2nd pick (who was already registered with your kennel name) became 1st pick by default, and the contract says 2nd pick is it the breeder's right to give the puppy to someone else?
 Selma Kennel
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12/18/2013 5:07:43 PM reply with quote send message to Selma Kennel Object to Post

I think it would be polite to offer the dog, out of respect mostly, to the owner of the bitch. I guess, legally that is correct, but I would still feel the need to offer the show pup to them if their pick declined in health.
Mack
 krisk
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12/18/2013 6:35:34 PM reply with quote send message to krisk Object to Post

First refusal should have gone to the breeder of the bitch. Yes the agreement was for 2nd pick, 2nd pick is still there. I understand the breeder of the litter wanting to keep 2nd pick after the 1st pick failed a health test. But if that breeder decides (for any reason) not to keep said pup, it should have gone to the breeder of the bitch (as it is still "2nd" pick, baised on when picks where made).

Just as if this was a singleton litter and the breeder decided to pass on the puppy. First refusal should have gone to the breeder of the bitch, to full fill the contract in getting said bitch.

JMO
krisk
 Clumberjack Kennels
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12/18/2013 11:27:02 PM reply with quote send message to Clumberjack Kennels Object to Post

It isn't the breeder of the bitch, it is the previous owner. The breeder of the bitch doesn't factor in the situation at all. The current owner of the bitch wanted to give the 2nd pick (now 1st pick by default) to someone else, and leave the previous owner of the bitch who has 2nd pick with no puppy and having to wait until the next litter. The current bitch owner is using the semantics of the contract which states "2nd pick" by saying there is no 2and pick and 1st pick is theirs to with as they please. The previous owner of the bitch wrote the contract that way because in almost 9 years of knowing the current bitch owner they have ALWAYS kept first pick to at least grow out.
 gaylanstudio
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12/19/2013 1:23:16 PM reply with quote send message to gaylanstudio Object to Post

I've little experience in this area but I'd say be very careful how you write these contracts.

Should there not be an age specified for "picking"? If you make your selections at the age specified, then that should be it regardless of future developements.
 PPvallhunds
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12/20/2013 12:08:38 PM reply with quote send message to PPvallhunds Object to Post

I'd say Morally the pup should be offered to the bitches previous owner as agreed in the contract if the current owner doesn't want to keep it, However if the contract states what was written in the fist post, the breeder could argue that the previous owner needs to Waite For the next litter as the contract doesn't state 2nd pic from first litter. So as long as they breed her again and offer 2nd pick from that litter they are still with in the contract.
 Whovian Kennels
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12/20/2013 11:40:29 PM reply with quote send message to Whovian Kennels Object to Post

Honestly? If she gets first pick, then she should have first pick to do with what she likes....if she wants to keep it, place it, etc, its technically her puppy....
 Lilliput
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12/21/2013 2:53:19 AM reply with quote send message to Lilliput Object to Post

I am so confused. Seems to me everyone has every right to do what they want with their pick. If the breeder wants to offer her first pick pup to someone else, she can do that.

What gets me, is picks were made already. Seems to me, once picks are made, that's it. It seems the picks were so certain, that 2nd pick was registered already with the 2nd pick receiver's kennels name. What happens to the dogs after picks are made is whatever happens.

Would I make a pick before 8 weeks? No, probably not. But it was done here. I think the breeder is just out of luck that the pup she picked as first pick didn't work out, and 2nd pick should still rightfully go to whomever got 2nd pick. UNLESS the picks were only preliminary or contingent on passing health tests etc. That's a risk you run with ANY dog- what if she grew out her pick to 6 months or a year and a fault was found? would she demand 2nd pick back then too?

So Breeder 1 is in the wrong for rearranging her picks after her pick didn't work out, and Breeder 2 is in the wrong for caring what breeder 1 does with her pick puppy.
 protocol
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12/21/2013 6:52:48 AM reply with quote send message to protocol Object to Post

This happens in my breed regularly. Breeder A has a lot of stud dogs and very high stud fees, so most people opt to give 2nd pick back. She then sells 2nd pick 90% of the time. If bitch owner wants the puppy back, they must buy it at the price she is selling it (which is 2x the stud fee). Completely allowable, just unfortunate for the bitch owner.
 residential5
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12/22/2013 10:57:20 PM reply with quote send message to residential5 Object to Post

I would understand that the Breeder still has the pick puppy (#1). It is up to them what they do with the puppy that is rightfully theirs once they claim it. If that means selling/placing it because of their obligation, that's what they do with it.

So previous owner, who is owed #2 pick, still gets #2. If #2 is a pet, then #2 is a pet, that's a risk of breeding a litter.

That's how I'd read it, at least.
 Quiet Acres
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12/23/2013 8:58:06 PM reply with quote send message to Quiet Acres Object to Post

This is one reason i hate breeding dogs, and i stick to my own dogs 90% of the time. there is no question that this person fully understood that u ment 2nd best show pup. lets be real. why would u have a contract in the first place if u just wanted any ole dog. There is always going to be a loop hole where someone can play a fast one.

The part that i would be the most pissed about is that the dog is already named. i feel like i would go as far as court on that one because its like someone stealing your kennel name. this has me fumeing. reminds me of when a stud dog owner wanted a stud fee even though her dog gave my dog such a bad bacterial infection she had to be fixed. ie no pups. I hate people sometimes

end of rant
-Tash
 Hazygate
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1/7/2014 10:04:10 AM reply with quote send message to Hazygate Object to Post

Health should be a factor IMO in determining picks, so if a puppy isn't healthy, then clearly they are not 1st or even 2nd pick.

1st pick is the breeder's (current bitch owner) to do with as they please. 2nd pick, whether pet or show, belongs to the previous owner of the bitch unless the contract specifies show quality, or the current bitch owner decides to be generous, in which case they can wait for another breeding and take 2nd pick from that. Would it be COURTEOUS to offer 1st pick to the previous owner of the bitch rather than sell it to someone else? Yes. IS that what I would do? ... probably... but they are not obligated to as it's their puppy to do what they choose with and apparently they have another obligation to someone else.

Now THAT SAID... all that I wrote above is moot if anything in writing dictates that picks were firmly made prior to the health check up. That IMO would be UNWISE, but if the picks were made prior to whatever health screening was done and it was spelled out somewhere that picks at that point were FIRM, then the healthy "2nd pick [originally]" puppy should go to the previous owner of the bitch. Cause stuff can turn up years down the line, if it is after the point of picks being firm, then too bad, so sad.
 
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2/4/2014 3:09:39 PM reply with quote send message to Object to Post edit post

Now that the situation has been resolved I feel like I can give more details about this issue. In 2010 I purchased a 7 month old bitch, she had A LOT of issues due to the way she was raised and total lack of socialization by her breeder, she is almost an ADD type dog. I spent almost 3 years trying to get her to fit in with my pack before I finally realized that I was not the right home for her. The owner of her sire who we will call “Breeder B”, wanted her so I sent her to “Breeder B” at no cost and I paid for shipping. I sent her on a contract that said I would get back a 2nd pick show puppy, and that I get first right of refusal on the bitch if “Breeder B” decides to place her. “Breeder B” has been having a hard time with the bitch just like I did and decided to breed her at the same time as she bred 2 other bitches that way if she couldn’t settle down and be a mother she would be able to put the puppies on one of the other girls. One of her girls had a singleton, the other girl didn’t take and the girl that I sent her had 4 puppies 3 females and a male, right off the bat the male and 1 female were deemed pets which left 2 girls.

I was told for the entire 8 weeks that one of the puppies was mine, the breeder just needed to pick the puppy she was keeping (she never once told me she was placing her 1st pick puppy which is fine). The picks were decided… then a few days later I receive a message saying that girl #1 had failed a health test so now my girl was 1st pick and was being offered to “Breeder C”. That is when I found out that girl #1 had been given to “Breeder C”. Originally “Breeder C” was supposed to get a puppy from one of the other litters but since there was a singleton and one didn’t take “Breeder B” opted to give her pick from the litter out of the girl I gave her to “Breeder C”. Picks had been chosen to the point that girl #1 had already been registered with “Breeder C’s” kennel name and girl #2 had already been registered with my kennel name. I was also told that if “Breeder C” opted not to take girl #2 that “Breeder B” was keeping her since she was now first pick and I could have a puppy from the next litter if/when “Breeder B” bred the girl she got from me again OR I could have girl #3 who had been deemed a pet in “Breeder B’s” mind but had no disqualifying faults.

Apparently “Breeder B” and “Breeder C” had a deal to trade puppies or something like that so “Breeder B” was honoring her obligation to “Breeder C”, I am just of the opinion that when it comes to THIS particular litter “Breeder B’s” obligation to me should come first since I bought the bitch, raised her for 3 years and then gave her to “Breeder B” but I can’t do as much for her as “Breeder C” can.
Anyway with all that said after a lot of back and forth I am glad to say that I will be picking my puppy up in 2 weeks!
 Greener Grass
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2/4/2014 8:18:00 PM reply with quote send message to Greener Grass Object to Post

I'm glad it all worked out for you. The OP was confusing, but I worked it out in my mind as you later explained it, and yes "Breeder B" was COMPLETELY in the wrong, in my opinion.

Picks were made, completely. Contractually there may not have been clauses and such for failed tests/age of picks/etc.. Morally, they should know and understand that it's simply their own stroke of bad luck that the pup they picked failed a health test.

Like someone above said, what would they have done should the dog not have grown into such a nice show prospect by 6 months, 8 months, or even a year? The pup is registered with your name, it is yours, done and done.

Glad you got it all worked out! Good luck with your pup!



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