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Author Topic : Supplements? What and why?
 Astoria Kennel
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2/17/2014 5:43:42 PM reply with quote send message to Astoria Kennel Object to Post   

I know everyone swears by something different.
I'm just trying to learn more about the different vitamins and supplements from those who actually have experience seeing results (or not) in their dogs.
In the past I gave my mini Longhaired dachshund Norwegian kelp and salmon oil daily for coat. I've also broken open vitamin e oil capsules onto my mini wires eyebrows to get them to grow happy :)
I've seen tons at vendors and online- what has everyone tried and suggest?
Thanks!
 Eskie Creek
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2/19/2014 3:33:55 PM reply with quote send message to Eskie Creek Object to Post

I give my goldens vitamin C daily and vitamin E every other day.
 JLK Goldens
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2/22/2014 11:12:26 AM reply with quote send message to JLK Goldens Object to Post

My one boy gets glucosamine and msm and fish oils daily due to hip issues and coat issues. My others will be going back on inflight coat formula love this for coat growth and just keeping great looking coats on dogs.

Jana
 gaylanstudio
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2/22/2014 12:31:36 PM reply with quote send message to gaylanstudio Object to Post

Glucosamine and Vitamin C.

Glucosamine because I believe from personal experience that it helps slow the progression of arthritis.

Vitamin C because it is thought that dogs manufacture sufficient amounts themselves, however I suspect that is not always true. Many years ago I read of a study about Vitamin C and hip dyplasia. The Vit C helps muscle and ligament and thus theoretically help keep the joint from slipping. I don't know what the current status on this is but I had a cocker who had stifle issues starting from about 5 I believe. We put him on Vitamin C and he lived happily and apparently painlessly to be 18.

I also add VitD and Omega-3 to his dinner - I home-cook for him.

So, Astoria, tell me - does the Vit E really work on those eyebrows? I know of a some human heads that might benefit if it does (lol).

 Astoria Kennel
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2/22/2014 1:01:07 PM reply with quote send message to Astoria Kennel Object to Post

How early do you guys start the glucosamine. My 9 yo male is on glucosamine too, he's had back issues. I haven't started my 7 yo female because she's shown no isseus but it probably wouldn't be a bad idea.

I definitely think the Vit E worked - it wasn't a miracle by any means, but he did have about 10 hairs on his eyebrows opposed to the 6 that had been there! lol I always gave it to my longhaired dachshund when I was showing her too, just didn't break it open on the coat.

I came across this story the other day - anyone have personal experience with this? It's scary to me to think that we could really be hurting our dogs by supplementing certain things and not others.
www.holisticandorganixpetshoppe.com/i-almost-killed-my-dog-with-fish-oil.html
 Lilliput
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2/22/2014 2:33:42 PM reply with quote send message to Lilliput Object to Post

I start supplementing with glucosamine and chondriotin early in life. Would probably depend on the dog and the breed as to exactly when. My current dog, a Cavalier, has been on it since I got her at 5 years. Not because she had any joint issues, but because it is my belief, and I believe the research shows, that it works better when given BEFORE problems develop to help prevent joint damage than it does after joint damage is already present.

I also use CoQ10, which is a common supplement in the breed, for her heart. She's been on that from 5 as well, and didn't develop a murmur until 11-12years, which is phenomenal for the breed, so I have to think it might have helped. For a breed without heart issues (or different heart issues), I wouldn't bother.

She's also on cranberry now, added in the past year as she's started getting recurrent UTI's with no clear etiology. It seems to be helping some.
 Super Uber Kennels
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2/22/2014 4:39:43 PM reply with quote send message to Super Uber Kennels Object to Post

Has anyone ever had a dog develop psoriasis? If so, did you ever try evening primrose oil for it? Just wondering...
 JLK Goldens
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2/23/2014 12:44:38 AM reply with quote send message to JLK Goldens Object to Post

I pup is on glucosamine and has been since he was 6 months old due to hip and bone issues. All my other guys get it as supplementation just to keep them from getting issues ones 3 1/3 one will be 4 in april and the other is 7.

Jana
 gaylanstudio
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2/23/2014 10:40:16 AM reply with quote send message to gaylanstudio Object to Post

this post has been edited 1 time(s)

I think I started my guy on glucosamine at about 5years. From personal experience with osteoarthritis, glucosamine does work best started early. It is not a cure! It can slow the progress so starting before the damage occurs makes sense.

My gut feeling is that glucosamine could be started after they've finished growing, so 2 or 3 years I suppose. I have no particular reason for saying this, it just somehow feels right.

Yes there are certain vitamins and other supplements that you need to be careful with. Unless you are sure, use moderation always! Most nutrients should come in the regular diet.


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Last edited by gaylanstudio on 2/23/2014 10:46:00 AM
 griffin
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2/24/2014 9:12:26 AM reply with quote send message to griffin Object to Post

In general there is very little evidence vitamins/supplements do anything at all unless your dog is deficient because of a poor diet.

Vitamins supplementation got its credibility from the reputation of one genius scientist but he got this idea from no evidence and has been repeatedly refuted by other scientists. -> his obsession with vitamin supplementation destroyed his reputation in the scientific community.

More recent work with huge sample sizes is suggesting vitamin supplementation might actually shorten lifespans (although this is still mostly correlation few have been able to test causation). In particular vitamin E supplements in humans are being linked to increased risk of prostate cancer.

Excessive supplementation of various things can be bad for various reasons (some are acidic & cause stomach issues, some can prevent the absorption of others, some micronutrients are toxic in themselves at high doses, etc..).

To summarize:
if you have a malnurished dog then supplements can be helpful to restore health.
if you have a healthy dog and give low doses then it is unlikely anything good or bad will happen - you're just financially supporting the multi-billion dollar supplement industry.
if you give high doses then supplements can be bad for your dog.

grif,
 Spirit Of The Arctic Kennel
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2/26/2014 2:37:21 PM reply with quote send message to Spirit Of The Arctic Kennel Object to Post

All of my Amstaff and APBT are fed kibble with glucosamine and chondroitin in it. They're all extremely active, so it makes me feel better about the preventative properties. I also notice a great difference in the way my 9 y/o boy gets around if I experiment with different kibbles.

I offer them a variety of any and all raw vegetable scraps I have, don't really think it does much, but they enjoy it. I offer whole egg every week or so, or shells if we use eggs for something. I also occasionally add a different source of meat protein, just to add variety since my choice of kibble only comes in chicken sadly.

The only real supplementing I stick to is organic cold pressed coconut oil and organic raw honey every day or two, and I try to provide a form of fish every week.


I don't like to play around too much with supplements as a quality kibble covers mostly everything, but after doing some experimenting with kibbles to find the "one", I've been doing this all consistently over the past year and my allergy dogs are clear, and my other dogs all have great coats, and gorgeous muscling...So, I'm sticking with it wink ;)

 Lilliput
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2/26/2014 3:24:05 PM reply with quote send message to Lilliput Object to Post

quote
posted by Spirit Of The Arctic Kennel
All of my Amstaff and APBT are fed kibble with glucosamine and chondroitin in it. They're all extremely active, so it makes me feel better about the preventative properties. I also notice a great difference in the way my 9 y/o boy gets around if I experiment with different kibbles.


It souds like your guys are getting a great diet. happy :)

I just wanted to address this a bit in gene3ral. I always advise people be aware when using a food with glucosamine and chondroitin added in, that the VAST majority of foods on the market do NOT contain a therapeutic dose. It's more of a marketing gimmick than being present in the sort of quantities needed to do good.

Normally, if you look on the back of the bag, it lists these in the amount present in mg per kg of food. One kg is 2.2lbs! So your dog ends up having to eat quite a lot of food to get that dose, and whether that dose is therapeutic or not anyway varies quite a lot by food. I'd check your food to see what the dose is, and check around to see what dose your dogs should be on (a lower dose is often ok for healthy dogs, and dogs with problems then get bumped up to take more, large dogs need more than small, etc)

There are some foods with a decent amount, but not many. I generally advise people not buy a food because of promises of joint supplements, but rather buy a food that works, and buy their supplements separately, which then also tend to be in a more available and usable form for the dog's body.

Your food sounds like it is working great for you, just wanted to caution not to assume that it is necessarily providing them with a good quality dose of glucosamine even if it is advertised that way.
 Astoria Kennel
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2/26/2014 7:36:57 PM reply with quote send message to Astoria Kennel Object to Post

Hmmmm I haven't heard of any with the joint supplements already in - guess I've been happy with what I've been feeding the past few years that I haven't even bothered to look into any other foods.

a bit off topic - but someone showed me a new website for buying dry food. www.chewy.com
it's cheaper for me to order my food through them since shipping is free.

Currently my older male is on Cosequin for the glucosamine - I'm not really familiar with any other/better options. He's a picky eater so anything powered is out (it would take him days to get a single dose)but he is currently still eating the tabs in a pill pocket.

How do you feed the egg shells? Crushed? I've never heard of that - but would be open to it if there are benefits for the dogs! That's what it's all about happy :)
 Leidenschaftlich
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2/27/2014 8:36:41 PM reply with quote send message to Leidenschaftlich Object to Post

Ester C: Antioxidant (eats free radicals) for all body systems, helps with blood sugar, prevents cataracts, helps the lungs and circulation, wound healing, even helps reproduction.

Coconut oil: Raw, virgin, cold pressed. It's a medium chain fatty acid so it is digestible and good for fur, teeth, nails, brain, all body systems, including endocrine. Gives energy! The uses for cold-pressed coconut oil are endless and so amazing.

Brewer's yeast (not baker's yeast): VERY rich in essential B vitamins: Energy, wound healing, helps deal with high stress, prevents cancer, helps the mind be at its best, and much more.

Also learning more about turmeric as also a powerful antioxidant, up there near acai berry, and it's safe for pets. For joints, digestion, metabolism, and prevention of cancer.

They all sort of do the same thing with a bit of variation. I supplement these in my diet and I wouldn't hesitate to do the same for my dog or cat.

Reina
 Leidenschaftlich
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2/27/2014 8:37:25 PM reply with quote send message to Leidenschaftlich Object to Post

quote
We put him on Vitamin C and he lived happily and apparently painlessly to be 18.
Amazing!
 
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2/28/2014 9:25:24 AM reply with quote send message to Object to Post edit post

Antioxidant supplementation either does nothing or increase mortality:

Meta-analysis of 68 trials with 232 606 participants covering vitamin C, vitamin A, beta-carotene, vitamin E, and selenium:
jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleID=205797

Meta-analysis of 14 trials with 170?525 participants covering ß-carotene, vitamins A, C, E, and selenium (no effect on cancer, may increase mortality):
www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0140673604171389

Meta-analysis of 7 vitamin E (81 788 participants, no effect) and 8 beta-carotene (138 113 participants, increased risk of cardiovascular death & all death) trials:
www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0140673603136379

Antioxidants (vitamin E and N-acetylcysteine) increase lung tumour growth in mice:
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24477002

Folic acid & B-vitamins have no effect on preventing cardiovascular disease:
jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=181854

Meta-analysis of B-vitamins and antioxidants on atherosclerosis (no either had any effect):
ajcn.nutrition.org/content/84/4/880.short

grif,
 griffin
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2/28/2014 9:30:24 AM reply with quote send message to griffin Object to Post

this post has been edited 1 time(s)

Sorry for the typos in my post above.

I just want to point out that supplement manufacturers don't need to provide any evidence their product does anything at all in order to be able to claim it "helps the immune/cardiovascular/nervous/etc.. system" or "aids with reproduction/sight/digestion/etc.." or "stimulates the body to heal itself". All of those phrase can be put on a package of sugar cubes if the manufacturer so desires.

grif,

PS if you dog lives to a ripe old age in good health that is probably because: (1) you fed it the appropriate amount of food - not undernourished nor overweight (2) you gave it sufficient exercise & mental stimulation (3) you housed it in a clean, warm house (4) you took it to the vet when it was sick and (5) it has good genes and was born by a healthy dam. NOT because you fed it XYZ supplement.



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Last edited by griffin on 2/28/2014 9:35:23 AM
 Spirit Of The Arctic Kennel
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2/28/2014 2:46:14 PM reply with quote send message to Spirit Of The Arctic Kennel Object to Post

quote
posted by Lilliput
quote
posted by Spirit Of The Arctic Kennel
All of my Amstaff and APBT are fed kibble with glucosamine and chondroitin in it. They're all extremely active, so it makes me feel better about the preventative properties. I also notice a great difference in the way my 9 y/o boy gets around if I experiment with different kibbles.


It souds like your guys are getting a great diet. happy :)

I just wanted to address this a bit in gene3ral. I always advise people be aware when using a food with glucosamine and chondroitin added in, that the VAST majority of foods on the market do NOT contain a therapeutic dose. It's more of a marketing gimmick than being present in the sort of quantities needed to do good.

Normally, if you look on the back of the bag, it lists these in the amount present in mg per kg of food. One kg is 2.2lbs! So your dog ends up having to eat quite a lot of food to get that dose, and whether that dose is therapeutic or not anyway varies quite a lot by food. I'd check your food to see what the dose is, and check around to see what dose your dogs should be on (a lower dose is often ok for healthy dogs, and dogs with problems then get bumped up to take more, large dogs need more than small, etc)

There are some foods with a decent amount, but not many. I generally advise people not buy a food because of promises of joint supplements, but rather buy a food that works, and buy their supplements separately, which then also tend to be in a more available and usable form for the dog's body.

Your food sounds like it is working great for you, just wanted to caution not to assume that it is necessarily providing them with a good quality dose of glucosamine even if it is advertised that way.

Oh no worries, I know labels are often far from the truth... The label only lists Glucosamine/Chondroitin as 300 & 100mg. Whether it actually does anything is debatable, I just notice my boy starts to limp if he's on a different food after about a week.

I'd honestly prefer to feed a little better brand of food, I've gone through most of the higher priced ones without seeing any improvements but since I have 2 allergic to pea protein, and a few that lose weight moving up has proven difficult. Diamond Naturals is the first food where 7 out of 8 have thrived, so I just don't mess with anything anymore unless I need to.
 Acclamation
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2/28/2014 8:20:40 PM reply with quote send message to Acclamation Object to Post

this post has been edited 2 time(s)

Folic acid few weeks prior to and during pregnancy to prevent midline and spinal cord defects

Vitamin C to decrease pH of urine and secretions and for tissue regeneration

Omega 3 for cognitive and cardiac health

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Last edited by Acclamation on 2/28/2014 8:21:26 PM

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Last edited by Acclamation on 2/28/2014 8:23:10 PM
 Leidenschaftlich
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3/1/2014 7:44:01 AM reply with quote send message to Leidenschaftlich Object to Post


quote
posted by griffin
Sorry for the typos in my post above.

I just want to point out that supplement manufacturers don't need to provide any evidence their product does anything at all in order to be able to claim it "helps the immune/cardiovascular/nervous/etc.. system" or "aids with reproduction/sight/digestion/etc.." or "stimulates the body to heal itself". All of those phrase can be put on a package of sugar cubes if the manufacturer so desires.
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Grif... frig.

You have got to be kidding me.

I don't purchase from supplement manufacturers that say all of this on their product. I'm not some person off the street who will look at a pack of falsey-marketed sugar cubes and think - Oh! It's low fat and helps prevent heart attacks! I do my OWN research with my medical and nutritional background and decide this for myself. And I can because I have a brain.

Antioxidants, essential vitamins (from real sources, not manufactured), essential fatty acids, all of that, is what our body lives on, craves, desires, needs in order to function.

I look at the abstracts you have provided and think they are interesting but know there's quite a bit more to helping your health out than taking vitamin C, selenium, and folic acid. Not to mention epigenetics and what you are predisposed to way before you have put a multivitamin in your mouth. I don't expect antioxidants to save a dog with cancer. It's been done before but will a complete lifestyle change. We are born, we die, the best we can do in between is the best we can do.

quote
if your dog lives to a ripe old age in good health that is probably because: (1) you fed it the appropriate amount of food - not undernourished nor overweight (2) you gave it sufficient exercise & mental stimulation (3) you housed it in a clean, warm house (4) you took it to the vet when it was sick and (5) it has good genes and was born by a healthy dam. NOT because you fed it XYZ supplement.
And yet, there are millions of dogs who die at an early age that could have lived longer. It's such a vague, all-encompassing statement you have made. Yes, maybe supplements are not "needed." The thing is, you can't go back with a dead dog and see what happened and how to make it live longer.

If I feed my dog the supplements I have researched and used for myself and found helped me with my own health and those with me, let me. If they die at 8, I am not going to know whether that helped them or not, but at least I was trying with the knowledge and understanding I have been given.



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