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Now I'm talking border collies, not aussies or any of that. Is there any danger in breeding two split faced dogs? Would you produce a litter of split faced dogs or white headed dogs?

My guess would be that breeding two opposing split-face dogs (one coloured on the right the other coloured on the left) would increase the risk of white headed dogs the most, and breeding two identical split-face dogs would slightly increase the chance of white headed over breeding one split-faced dog which again would be slightly more likely to result in white headed that breeding two non-split face.

However, patch patterns are influenced by a lot more than DNA/genes, such as environmental influences on the dam and in the womb. So the risk of white-headedness would only be slightly influenced by the pattern of the parents.

Also since coat pattern of least concern in Border Collies, it seems silly to me to base a breeding decision on whether the parents are both split face or not.

grif,

ETA: that is assuming neither parent is split-faced because they are double-merles

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Last edited by griffin on 3/2/2014 3:05:04 AM

Griff, is deafness NOT a concern with whiteheaded dogs here? I'd think it was, since many breeds with extreme white/white headed do seem prone- like Bull Terriers. Since the deafness is caused by lack of pigment in the ear canal...

I am however, very aware that there are split faced and entirely white breeds for whom it is NOT a concern. So am wondering about this specific case.

What is your basis for thinking opposite side splits may have a higher chance of white? Is the side of the split THAT closely controlled by genetics? (ie, is a left hand split, different genetically than a right split?)

I also wonder if it is not strictly a concern about hearing, but about color preference and working ability? I have heard the argument that white faced dogs are not preferred for herding because the sheep are not as intimidated or something. I have no opinion on the matter, and am not saying it is correct, just that it COULD be a concern of someone wanting working BCs.

Hey just popping in here...

Split faced and white faced borders were actually desired In a lot of working border collie strains especially amongst sheep herders who were working more than one dog, as it was easier to distinguish them from a distance.

As for white faced dogs deafness is generally not an issue as these dogs still have the desired pigment on their ears, it is the white headed dogs that may have the issue.

According to BC genetics a split face is an extension of a blaze, so I might assume that breeding opposite split faced dogs may create a higher chance genetically for a white faced dog, simply because the genetic propensity for that "blaze" to extend both directions is higher than if dogs with identical faces were bred, causing the genetic likelihood of the blaze to extend further in a single direction to be doubled.

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posted by Lilliput
Griff, is deafness NOT a concern with whiteheaded dogs here?

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Honestly I don't know. I assumed since BCs are still worked a lot and hearing is crucial to their job that if it was an issue there would be a much bigger condemnation of white-headed BCs than evidenced in the breed standard.

After a few minutes googling:
It seems there is a link between deafness in BCs and untested or deaf parents, merle, blue eyes and white on the head: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17186850
That might be sufficient reason to avoid breeding BCs with a lot of white on their head at all, as well as discourage breeding merle and/or blue-eyed dogs (white had the biggest effect on deafness risk). I would definitely avoid any breeding with more than one of those risk factors.

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posted by Lilliput

What is your basis for thinking opposite side splits may have a higher chance of white? Is the side of the split THAT closely controlled by genetics? (ie, is a left hand split, different genetically than a right split?)

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My basis for that guess is that laterality (left-right patterning) is highly genetically controlled during development. There are genes linked to left vs right handedness in humans and there are a variety of genetic disorders which cause left-right asymmetry defects in both humans and mice. So I guessed that there might be genetic factors affecting the side of the split.

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posted by Lilliput
I have heard the argument that white faced dogs are not preferred for herding because the sheep are not as intimidated or something. I have no opinion on the matter, and am not saying it is correct, just that it COULD be a concern of someone wanting working BCs.

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Again colour is going to be much less important in workability than a myriad of other factors (drive, balance, personality traits, etc...). - There is some evidence that white in animals has molecular links to a more calm/friendly personality which sounds more plausible than the "sheep aren't scared" line -

grif,

Thanks Griff, that was quite informative.

Regarding the color/working issue, just to be clear, I'm not saying I believe it, just that I have heard that theory espoused by others, and would imagine that some breeders would avoid it for that reason- because THEY believe it to be true, not because I do. That I was throwing it out there as a reason some people might wish to know about those genetics.

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posted by griffin
There is some evidence that white in animals has molecular links to a more calm/friendly personality which sounds more plausible than the "sheep aren't scared" line

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I always wondered about the old "too much white and the sheep won't be scared" line. Just didn't seem to make that much sense to me. But, it definitely makes more sense if white is linked to calmer personality. I'd never heard that before, but definitely some interesting stuff! (Interestingly enough, I have a pinto Anatolian mix pup with minimal markings and he's significantly more friendly than our other dogs have been)

Alexandria

Edited for spelling.

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Last edited by Laffy-Taffy Kennels on 3/3/2014 8:53:27 AM

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posted by Laffy-Taffy Kennels

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posted by griffin
There is some evidence that white in animals has molecular links to a more calm/friendly personality which sounds more plausible than the "sheep aren't scared" line

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I always wondered about the old "too much white and the sheep won't be scared" line. Just didn't seem to make that much sense to me. But, it definitely makes more sense if white is linked to calmer personality. I'd never heard that before, but definitely some interesting stuff! (Interestingly enough, I have a pinto Anatolian mix pup with minimal markings and he's significantly more friendly than our other dogs have been)

Alexandria

Edited for spelling.

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Last edited by Laffy-Taffy Kennels on 3/3/2014 8:53:27 AM

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You might find some reading on the Belyaev Fox experiment to be an interesting start regarding the white/tameness connection.

I promise not all white faced dogs are calm LOL Molly is so far from calm and she is mainly white head but has colored ears so hearing is fine.

Jana

I normally not a fan of random websites as references but this one is decent (uses scientific terms correctly and provides a list of references) and is a good summary of the possible links between white and tameness:

www.ratbehavior.org/CoatColor.htm

I had a look for and introduction to lateralization & axis development (how cells in the embryo figure out where they are - left/right/head/tail) but I can only find very technical stuff since most of the work is very new and very complicated.

grif,

the white/sheep thing is just an old wives tale, there was never any basis in reality lots of mosty white working sheepdogs out there it IS an old belief that persists tho, so they ARE often discriminated against by old time farmers unfortunately.

Jana, Molly has BLACK ears, therefore she should not have colour related deafness which is linked with WHITE eared dogs with no pigment in their middle ear

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posted by Acclamation
Jana, Molly has BLACK ears, therefore she should not have colour related deafness which is linked with WHITE eared dogs with no pigment in their middle ear

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No I know thats why I posted she was not deaf due to the black on her ears. She has good pigment but it technically a white headed dog in both aussies and border collies (she is a mix of the two) I only posted her photos due to the person saying that white headed dogs are calmer this is my agility dog and shes crazy hyper LOL

Jana

As far as health concerns, I'm pretty sure it isn't linked to deafness/blindness like the merle to merle breedings. At least in Border Collies...breeding 2 white-factored dogs doesn't usually cause that sort of issue.

Split faces I think tend to be fairly random in Whippets, though I do believe there are some genetics behind it...as you are more likely to get split faced offspring when the parent has one. It is most likely recessive or polygenetic, because two parents with traditional blazes can and will throw it.

My current bitch is from a litter in which both parents had regular blazes. The grandsire on one side was split-faced...and the granddam on the other side was white faced. There were two white faced puppies in the litter of 5, the rest had blazes.

My guess, is that you will see a lot of white on the heads, either split faced or all white..maybe some blazes, but ears should be fine (Given the parents can hear).

I just spoke with a vet who did BAER testing at our National, and she said even if they have colored ears, you can get some surprises...not the good kind!

Skyline