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www.showdog.com/shows/breed_results.aspx?show=Meekos%204th&breed=Rottweiler

I just want to understand how my dog did not win best in breed in this show...if anyone has a reasonable explanation, I would love to hear it!

Oh, Dom Dom, the explanation is...that there IS NO EXPLANATION! At least you got beat by a 96 dog, and not 90 dogs when yours were all 92s >.<.

I am sorry though...as much as I hate that dog, he's so handsome, lol.

Alexandria

ETA: I wouldn't even blame this one on the traits! Speed of Light had 3 dang 10s...

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Last edited by Laffy-Taffy Kennels on 5/23/2014 1:17:51 PM

It may be due to your dog's age. If I remember right, a puppy will actually mature on this game (just like in real life, a puppy is less likely to win over a mature dog), so unless your puppy is a much better specimen than the adult dogs, it is not likely to win over them. This looked like a close one, judging from what we can see about the traits and the judge's preferences.

If you look at the traits the judge has ranked as "high" my dog is the same and 2 of the 3, and better by 0.2 in the other.

I understand that, but they are close and your puppy is still a puppy. Anyways, it's only a guess and you wanted opinions. Then there's the whole 'hidden decimals' stuff but I really believe it's probably that your dog isn't matured yet.

Oops, this is Topaz Fields in another kennel.

That judge has a bias for dogs over bitches. That alone would be a giant count against you. Most of them, particularly in closely matched dogs ALWAYS place their preferred sex above the other.

In addition to that, there are still hidden decimals. Your 9.2 and his 9.1 could be relatively close together (say his is a 9.19 and yours is 9.20 for instance).

This applies to 10's as well. Head and TNB are the two most important traits in your breed- it is possible the dog has slightly better 10's than your girl has.

The decimals are something you observe more over time over a series of shows- ie, a dog who looks less than yous, but keeps winning, probably has really nice decimals.

In this case, I would crack it up mostly to a dogs over bitches bias in two closely matched dogs.

I've never heard of dogs maturing, aside from initial things from other factors- ie, turning 14 days old, and finishing their sessioning. If your dog just recently finished it's sessioning, the other dog could have a slight advantage there. But most players say to session a few days past 20 and you're good to go.

Some judges do prefer dogs thy have seen more- which gives an older dog an edge as they're had more days to be shown under that judge. But that doesn't seem to be the case here, as this judge has no such bias.

And sometimes dogs appear to "mature" because the competition changes- a really good dog that was dominating the competition retires, making way for your dog to start winning, or the judge schedule changes a bit in favor of your dog, etc.

Wait, you said, "That judge has a bias for dogs over bitches. That alone would be a giant count against you." but my dog is also a male?

And my boy finished sessioning 5 days ago, and has been sessioned in training every day since then.

Lilliput, it may be that the maturing thing changed when other things changed (I was gone for several years). I know I haven't heard anything about it since I returned. In JRTs, my dogs seem to do better after they hit 30 days, even without older winning dogs being retired, but I usually continue to session, so that may be the difference.

As for the dogs versus bitches, I believe the OP was referring to Speed of Light but could be wrong.

I was referring to Speed of Light, yes.

Oh I see, I only looked quickly and thought you were referring to your bitch who went Best Opposite.

In that case, I think it's decimals.

This judge likes TNB, Size, and Coat, followed by Feet and Forequarter.

The dogs are evenly matched to the eye on TNB, Coat, and Feet.

Your dog is .2 better in size. But the other dog is weighted .2 better in Forequarter.

In your breed standard- forequarter holds more weight than size does.

Coupled with perhaps slightly better decimals, it seems a fair placing to me.

I definitely think it's the FQ, actually. If you look, both of the dogs are even (to us at least) in all of George Wallace's highly favored traits. However, if you go to the normal traits both feet are even to us, but the other dog has a better FQ than your dog. It seems that is probably what set them apart.

Windy

Three points I'd like to make are that:

1. The difference in size (my dog has better size) is more important than the difference in FQ.

2. When a trait is listed as "low" in the judge's preferences, that does not make it negligible. "Low" still has weight in the judge's choice. My dog also has a gait that is .2 better.

3. Does temperament have no effect on the judge's choice? I very much doubt that. As you can see, my dog has a much better temperament.

While it doesn't make all the other traits non-existent, it does mean that it's weighed less than the other traits. Perhaps that was enough to tip the scales?

Also, the show formula must have a handler coefficient. Perhaps that person has shown that dog themselves more, and thus is slightly higher than your own? Or what if it's based on a dice roll, so to speak. If the luck was on their side, and not on your's, that could do it, too.

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posted by Sonic Boom
Three points I'd like to make are that:

1. The difference in size (my dog has better size) is more important than the difference in FQ.

2. When a trait is listed as "low" in the judge's preferences, that does not make it negligible. "Low" still has weight in the judge's choice. My dog also has a gait that is .2 better.

3. Does temperament have no effect on the judge's choice? I very much doubt that. As you can see, my dog has a much better temperament.

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RE: #1- How do you figure? Size is more important to the judge overall, but judges also still go by the breed's standard as well- and in your breed standard, FQ has more weight than Size does.

#2-
You have several differing traits, all .2 difference-
Size- Weighted High for the judge, but only 5 for the breed
FQ- rated Normal for the judge, and 10 for the breed
Gait-rated low for the judge, and 10 for the breed.

Apparently a normal/10 trumps a low or a 5 here.
It's also worth noting that judge preferences are more nuanced I believe- we only see an approximation of their likes- so he could assigned his Size high a weight of say 6.7, and his FQ normal at 6.6, making the difference in the weight fairly negligible.

#3- Temperament is covered in the "General" part of the breed standard.

Judging is not supposed to be transparent here- if it was, the game wouldn't be any fun, as we'd all know who would win with absolute certainty before even entering. It seems to me the other dog won fairly here- the differences are not SO great as to make the win suspicious, and this other dog had some better traits than yours which clearly made a difference to the judge.

There are some things that will never be explained, just like in real life...judging is not always as transparent as 'this one has a higher SOP, or better trait etc..'

I did not look at the specific situation, but from 5+ years of playing...I have decided..

(1) There is an "it" factor with certain dogs, they just win and it cannot be explained easily. I had a multiple BIS winner, that had traits that were average at best.. I was just trying to finish her, and she beat my Special every time in a competitive breed (Borzoi).

(2) Sometimes the highest SOP dog will do good just to finish, and will never be your big winner. Also, that low SS dog.. she might be your be your best producer and show dog.

(3) Handlers can literally make ALL the difference... there were some judges I would not show a special to if the best handler was taken in their sex...you simply did not win with less than that one handler.. and certainly not BIS.

Those are just a few of many reasons, I would just keep sessioning and keep showing, you will figure out what works for your dog.

Jennifer
Skyline
Atsonbay Borzoi

In reply to point #3, Lilliput, can you explain why you keep ignoring the fact that temperament has the same weight in the breed standard as FQ?

Temperament is listed in the general section, and is not weighted by itself.. but lumped together with showshine and 'the other genetic traits.'



Directly from the site...

"General" Factor

The "General" factor takes into account such things as show shine and temperament in addition to the other genetic traits.

What Skyline said- it is factored in under general along with SS and other, unknown traits. So we really don't know how much of "General" is made up in temperament.

We also have no idea how much weight the judge gives to the general score, or temp individually.

It's a bit of a wildcard trait, in my experience, it does not matter as much as the more physical traits, which makes sense because it is a more difficult thing to judge in RL too- plenty of dogs with horrible temperament appear fine in the ring in RL- but I'm not sure anyone has ever tested this fully in the game.

We do know how much temperament counts. If you go to the SOP calculator, you can see this.