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This is something I've been wondering about for a while, as I have been playing my breeds for years now.

Anyway, it seems like it's relatively easy for new players to come into a breed and very quickly zoom straight to the top. They make very rapid advances in their breeding programs, while my progress seems to be very slow and incremental.

I've watched to see if they are doing something different in terms of breeding techniques, but if so, I don't find it readily apparent.

So this leads me to wonder if kennels tend to stagnate over time. I know when I have in the past gone into a new breed, improvements seem to come faster at first.

Now I sometimes go for months with virtually no improvement at all.

Have you all observed this, too, or am I just doing something wrong?

At this point, I really can't switch breeds, as my kennel is beyond broke.

I'm not sure but somewhere there is something about progress being faster when you start with lower quality. It's sort like trying to get from 19 to 20 in training.

If you are comparing stock that is roughly equal you should see progress at the same pace, with the same effort. You may also have to consider the overall status of the breed. Breed A, as a breed, average 98 SOP. Breed B averages 80. My stock in both breeds average 70. I would see more progress in breed A since I'm further behind than I am in breed B.

New folks generally start with lower quality stock, therefore see more progress. And then there is also the initial enthusiasm.

Sometimes if you go back a bit (ie – add some near source blood) it breaths new life into your line – I have seen this with my stock when recovering lost colours. Perhaps lack of progress is the result of lack of variation in the “genetic” material you are working with.

I'm just sort of guessing about how this might work – pure speculation. Does this fit with your original question?

I'd guess it could be from mixing different lines as when new to a breed a player may get dogs from different players where as once someone gets there line going they may start to bring in less new dogs.

I think another factor has to do with where the new kennels received their dogs from and the quality of the dogs. Since I've been playing, I've helped out a lot of new breeders with some of my best stock. To no surprise, they are even beating me in the beginning (not that I am complaining! ). Things start to calm down/the playing field is leveled when these breeders begin to breed these own dogs in the direction they want. So, I do think it has a bit to do with the quality of dogs new kennels can get a hold of in the beginning.

Em

I was in the same rut. When I came back, I was breeding my dogs, generation after generation, not a single outcross and with that alone I was not advancing, sop wise. I was falling behind FAST and I got to a point where I wanted to leave my breed. But I decided instead was to make "investments" and that meant breeding to outside studs until I got to a point where my dogs are showable. This gave my dogs their needed kick.

In my other kennel (Shadowstorm Kennels) has been successful for months now and I will tell you right now, I have no secrets. My stock was decent (well more than decent, thanks ) that came from a breeder whos been playing for years. My goal was to get dark blue traits breeding a 9.1 head to another 9.1 head to get a 9.2 head and I continue (and still continue) just like that. Also adding some source/trait project dogs in there, outcrossing to studs that would around out my dogs (because I was focusing so much on the top traits, I forgot about the bottom traits, so I had to breed out in order to better those traits (this is an ongoing project too) and breeding back to old (and great studs) of mine. All while getting my dogs in the ring because another goal of mine is to get a group placement and we honestly can't do that if we have low numbers showing that are of low sop. So I breed a lot, brood bitches never stay after they had their first or second litter, and studs leave right after they are used. So this keeps my kennel moving into the next generation. I know my dogs are far ahead of most in the breed but that's because I thought outside the box from the gecko.

Maybe thats what you need to do too?

That was me.

I have no clue but I'm facing this problem.

I use to be top 1-3 in my breed and im now 5th or 6th on the normal. What sucks is that most of the top dogs in my breed are breed by me which I sold thinking they wouldn't do well, however I have top SOP dogs not doing well in anything. I'm glad I was able to help people start out in the breed but I'm starting to fall behind and lose money. ):

Beach Dunes, you got me curious and I do think there might be something more. There shouldn't be any reason why my newly transitioned kennel (Vivente) is ahead of you, when I have only been showing a few dogs since I had to switch from my PPKeeshond account. I think there may be an added incentive for those "starting out" in a breed...hmmm...

Em

Again, I'm not trying to say anything bad about the other new kennels, it's just weird. It would make sense if the dogs were top SOP but my dogs are getting beat out by SOPs higher ( And traits higher that the judges prefer ). But at the same time this may not be the case because look at some people in some breeds who have continued to do well for years and years. In ST.Poodles that happens to be Kay, which deserves the 'top'. I just think it's very weird. I sell dogs who may get a CH with some time but hey are winning 1st-3rd in breed every show. Haha. Same with I sold a female to someone who bred it to my male and they got the newest Merit dog in our breed who introduced a huge trait boost. Weird isn't it :o

But I'm happy I've gotten some people in the breed with some nice dogs, It will encourage them to get more into the breed, compared to having a sucky first dog.

Oh, I know you didn't mean anything by your statement...I agree, as well! I just meant that I found the rankings shocking to myself (I hadn't checked to see where I stood beforehand since I imagined I had fallen off the grid when I transitioned and sold quite a few dogs), because you consistently have high SOP dogs with nice traits! I recently bred to one of your stud dogs, so you must be doing something right

Em

I think I know what you mean, I have two cocker bitches that I've been breeding religiously back to back, to high sop studs, and it's been over a month since I've gotten anything that's even as good as them, let alone better. So far I've FH'd about 6 complete litters, since my rule is I only keep something if it's at least as good as what I already have.

I also can't switch breeds due to being in debt.

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Last edited by Soundtrack on 8/11/2014 6:56:07 AM

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posted by Soundtrack
I think I know what you mean, I have two cocker bitches that I've been breeding religiously back to back, to high sop studs, and it's been over a month since I've gotten anything that's even as good as them, let alone better. So far I've FH'd about 6 complete litters, since my rule is I only keep something if it's at least as good as what I already have.

I also can't switch breeds due to being in debt.

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Last edited by Soundtrack on 8/11/2014 6:56:07 AM

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I'd say cut them off, if you keep fhing their litters well then they are not worth spending more money, especially on stud fees. Leave the breed until you have substantial amount of money to come back and get quality broods again. I dont care if their just as good as what I got in stock, that shouldn't be the goal. You want to breed for the better after each generation. That means keeping the best in the liter wether that means the highest sop or the one with the best traits to move forward.

I find there tends to be 'cycles' in my kennel. I'll go a month or two with little or no improvement, and then suddenly... BANG, multiple litters with multiple pups with an SOP that's a significant jump on the previous high.

I had this just the other day, actually - after a month or so languishing in the mid to high 87 with a disappointingly large number of litters failing to produce even one 87+ SOP pup, I suddenly had two pups of 88.4 (well, one who WOULD be 88.4 if her SS was 20 - I can't show her, but with luck she'll produce some fantastic puppies).

During those months of stagnation, I usually dip a little in the rankings for my breed. But then I bounce back up again when my kennel goes into the 'rapid improvement' part of the cycle.

I also get cycles of either good dogs or good bitches. Right now I'm mostly sessioning bitches because that's where the 88+ SOPs are for me. But I'm currently showing four dogs, which are the results of last month's stint of "apparently only male puppies shall have showable SOP".

I've noticed this as well.. There are just a few et breeders.. I think I'm the largest or second largest anyway.. My highest was just born today 85.20 (I think).. The last 2 cycles I've noticed puppies were just ok mid 83s but with this next crop I'm hoping for better.. Its starting out well ..

I've noticed a sort of generational thing: where you suddenly get few new high SOPs but they fail to produced anything as good as themselves but the generation after there is suddenly another big jump.

It's the same for specific traits, I did an outcross and got the first ever 10.0s in my breed but they produced nothing but 10.1s and 9.9s but breeding their kids together I've managed to regain the 10.0s.

The only times I've really stagnated is when I've bred myself into a corner and every dog has the same value for the stats +/- 0.1 then a couple outcrosses really helped.

grif,

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Last edited by griffin on 8/17/2014 6:31:44 AM

Interesting discussion. I have long suspected that a newbie in a breed has some sort of advantage (and I am sure Jeff will say that's not true).

I have always been in Standards and have always done well - that's my breed in RL, so I kinda stay put.

But I tried goldens a while back and had both the number 1 kennel in the game and the number 1 dog in the game within about 6 months!

Add an experienced player with a new kennel in a top breed and I bet you will see the same thing happen!

JMO!

Kathy

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posted by Pearl City

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posted by Soundtrack


I also can't switch breeds due to being in debt.

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Last edited by Soundtrack on 8/11/2014 6:56:07 AM

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Leave the breed until you have substantial amount of money to come back and get quality broods again.

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If I were to get rid of all my dogs, and do nothing but sell sessions, it would be about a year before my kennel was out of debt. I'd rather keep playing. I did finally get something to move forward with.

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Last edited by Soundtrack on 8/19/2014 9:05:35 AM

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Last edited by Soundtrack on 8/19/2014 9:06:26 AM

I started this thread based on my own experience and observations. I know when I've gone into new breeds, it seems like I go straight to the top in a matter of months. And this has happened in like four or five breeds.

One of the breeds I'm in now had been kind of flat for a long time. But a new player came in and SOPs have jumped a full point in the past few months -- more than they had gone up with the same players in the past year or more.

Some kennels do a great job of staying at the top, but it's not easy to beat the "flattening out" that seems to happen over time at the top.