.com Forum · Real Show Dogs

Hi everyone.

I have two Border Collies who I actively train and compete with in Agility trials. My female is an Aus Red out of Australian lines and my male is a Black Tri-color from English Herding lines.
I've recently been considering breeding them (if all goes well, and they are genetically compatible), however, I'm not sure of all the genetic testing I should have done on them. I looked at Optigen's website, but I noticed that not every BC breeder tests for all of the recommended recessive genetic diseases that they would recommend? Is there a reason?

Thanks,
Cassie

My guess would be that those breeders tested their breeding stock early on, and will know which litters won't have those traits, so no need to test.
Hopefully someone on here has BCs and has a great answer! Otherwise, I would contact the parent club for your country.

In the UK assured breeders must have there dogs
Eye tested
Hip scored

Then they are also recommended to have done
DNA test for CEA/CH
DNA test for CL
DNA test for TNS
Gonioscopy

So if I was looking for a border in any country I'd want all of those tests done.

-----
Last edited by PPvallhunds on 12/21/2014 8:47:29 AM

In general the only reason to not test for a recessive condition where a genetic test is available is if the breeder knows the dogs are clear because a whole generation of the dogs pedigree has been tested and found to not carry the condition.

Thanks everyone!! I'll definitely look into contacting the BCSA/ABCA...

Thanks again!
Cassie

-----
Last edited by Bordercraze on 12/21/2014 7:22:31 PM

In the US we have CHIC certification:

www.caninehealthinfo.org/

There are the lists of tests for CHIC certification for Border Collies:

www.caninehealthinfo.org/brdreqs.html?breed=BCO

There are tests required for a CHIC certification and optional tests listed.

Some breeders do not test for diseases that are "clear by parentage." And some breeders just don't do testing because "it is not in my lines."

When looking at breeding a dog or purchasing a dog minimally I want all of the CHIC tests done. Then depending on the lines I would want the optional tests done.

If I was just starting out with lines I did not know much about, I would probably do all the required and optional tests. That way I know what I am starting with.

-----
Last edited by Cornus on 12/22/2014 9:28:45 AM

-----
Last edited by Cornus on 12/22/2014 9:29:32 AM

Thanks Cornus for the additional link!

Cassie

-----
Last edited by Bordercraze on 12/23/2014 5:57:02 PM

I remember you. I'd ask yourself WHY you are considering breeding these dogs together. It sounds to me like it is a pairing of convenience- you have a stud and a bitch, and thus think they'd make a good match. a good breeding is so much more than that.

I also recall there were multiple issues that I think would preclude breeding out of your bitch, or at least cause serious thought- among them her pedigree, which was a father/daughter breeding if I recall, and she has experienced at one point in her life, not too long ago, recurrent issues with collapsing during agility class.

You are also only 16. Which is far too young to take responsibility for breeding a litter on your own. By the time you will be of age, and have the time and responsibility and wisdom to make these decisions, these dogs, particularly your bitch, will be too old for a first litter.

Enjoy them as pets, and by all means continue to be active in dog sports and learn- but I'd put breeding on the back burner for some years to come yet.

I was just speaking hypothetically here. There is still a good chance that I may breed neither one of them. If this was merely out of convenience for me, then why would I bother to health test them in the first place? If their results were anything less than perfect, I would have my bitch spayed immediately and continue to work her in other performance venues.

I was planning on testing my bitch for Border Collie Collapse Syndrome anyway if I bred her. Other than that, I did ask my vet about it, she said it was probably an electrolyte imbalance and not to worry about it. And yes, my bitch was from a father/daughter breeding; however it hasn't affected her in any way, she's still the smartest dog I own and knows over 100 tricks.

I wouldn't even consider this if I didn't have people who already actively compete in the agility field begging for one of her puppies. I still know that is not any reason to breed her, but I just want you to know why I even considered breeding them in the first place. The reason I would be breeding them is not out of convenience; it's because they're both very drivey and intelligent dogs and while I believe there are some very good show breeders out there, there's more to the Border Collie than merely breeding for looks.

Thank you for time,
Cassie

I never implied breeding a BC should be solely for looks or conformation. And you yourself acknowledge that having people requesting puppies isn't a good reason. Health and performance are certainly good reasons- but your logic here is flawed. You have one dog with a tricky pedigree- even if she is the best, smartest dog in the world the puppies also inherit her pedigree. No guarantee it won't come back to bite you.

You also have a dog with known issues in performance situations- even if it IS just an electrolyte imbalance, what good is a performance dog that is prone to collapsing from electrolyte imbalance ringside?

Further, you give no indication that you have thought carefully and fully about her conformation, temperament, strengths, and weaknesses, and HONESTLY decided that the boy you just happen to have living in your house is the best match out of ALL The studs available.

Plenty of people DO get genetic testing done on their single dog and bitch and then breed them- because buyers demand test results. Just having genetic testing doesn't mean it's not a breeding of convenience or a good pairing.

Have you asked your bitches breeder for advice? Or your mentor?

Given that you have made a website advertising the breeding here- alohabordercollies.weebly.com/
It sure seems like it's more than a "hypothetical" breeding- but that you are very seriously considering.

Also consider your age- you are too young to offer stability and a responsible breeder's agreement to any pups that come from this union- that is, to guarantee their health and temperament to future buyers and to agree to take back ANY puppy for any reason at ANY point in their lives. You haven't even graduated high school yet- the next 10 years of your life will involve great upheaval and change, which is not an environment in which you can extend that guarantee. Knowing your buyers is no guarantee they won't need to rehome in the future, flake out on you, etc. You are also too young to be legally responsible, and likely to young and without the financial means to hire a lawyer to help with the initial contracts and enforcement etc.

What do your parents think of all this? There's absolutely NO WAY I'd deal with a 16 year old breeder as the solely responsible party as a buyer.

They seem like nice dogs. But this breeding seems very ill-advised. Sit back, enjoy them, and and spend the next 10 years learning all you can. I'm not saying it can't happen "someday". Just not now, and not with these dogs.

Please heed Lilliput's advise ... she's not being "mean" just sensible and knowledgeable. Consider her a VERY good mentor to you. I too would never consider buying a pup from a child ... just too many legalities which could not be enforced for the protection of both buyer and seller. I'm actually very surprised that your bitch wasn't sold with a non-breeding contract! Makes me wonder if she's even registered ...

I have to agree with Lilliput on this one. While your bitch may be the best dog, that doesn't mean she is breeding quality. A father/daughter breeding is tricky and even if it hasn't affected her openly, it could have a negative influence on the puppies.

Also, is your male from proven lines? Whether working or show?

The health testing is just the tip of the iceberg. There is the legalities, the responsibility of the puppies after they are in their new homes, like Lilliput stated.

Other things to really consider, say you breed them and she takes. Now you have the vet bills during pregnancy, which entails x-rays and a normal check at minimum. What if something went wrong? Do you have the financial means to do an emergency C-section? What if your bitch died during whelp? Do you have the time, money and energy to hand rear multiple puppies? It's hard and it's emotionally and physically exhausting. A good friend of ours just did it with 10 and it was an emotional roller coaster.

Then there are the vet bills for the puppies, food once they are weaned, and just everyday puppy expense.

The cost of breeding is heavy both financially, physically and emotionally and honestly at 16 there is no way your ready to take that on all alone. I would never buy from a minor, simply because I feel that a good breeder has at least that many years of knowledge about dogs, their breed, different events, etc. And your just beginning.

Love them as your pets, enjoy doing events with them, and learn learn learn. Learn the ins and outs of the standard, how to pick a good stud, how to match the right bitch with the right stud, how to pick a top notch puppy, how to raise puppies, etc and then in 10 years when your life is more settled and your very knowledgable, breed. You will do much better and hopefully it will be a little less taxing on you.

Though I agree with the above suggestions, having experience in the breed, you should test the following before breeding:

-OFA and/or PENNhip (nothing below fair, though even fair is pushing it)
-Collie Eye Anomaly (do not breed a carrier to a carrier)
-Thyroid (you should have this done regardless of whether or not you are breeding because the breed is so susceptible to it)

Also it would be wise to get your red checked for merle -- Australian Reds can be tricky and though they don't necessarily "mask" the merle gene it can be difficult to see merling on a red dog.

I do suggest against breeding. Just think about this -- what do you want your bitch to be, an agility dog or a breeding dog? Breeding will take time out of a bitch's career and will put her out of shape.

Spend some more time within the breed. I own and run borders myself, have apprenticed under various breeders of borders, and even lived and worked for a longtime fancier of the breed and I STILL wouldn't breed my dogs for the fact that I have only been involved within the breed for a short time.