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Topic : Am I being pushed by the breeder or is this the norm (deposits) |
Pompeii Ash
Premium Member
Posts : 77
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Through my vet I found an OES breeder. Highly recommended, beautiful dogs etc.
I've decided to have a male. He'll be neutered, a pet only. My decision on the breed is based a lot on knowing two OES a family I worked for owned. I met the dogs (brothers) when they were 6 and 9 years old. Was able to watch them grow, mature and eventually pass on.
I was just notified that a litter was born and I was asked to put a deposit down on a puppy. I let them know I'd like to see the pups first. They emailed me pictures, didnt specify which are males but said 4 are male.
I emailed again saying they are beautiful and asked for pictures of the males.
It took three days for them to get back to me saying one male has been claimed and they'll send new pictures out but they need to know if I'm interested and if I am they would take paypal, check, money order or could come to my home with the puppies so I could choose one and give the deposit in cash.
Does this seem normal? I still don't know which are males, haven't chosen the one I want, don't know if the one I'd want is spoken for. The pups aren't 2 weeks old yet and I'm really being pushed, or so it seems.
Do breeders generally hold back the info on puppies until deposits are given? I dont like that they are willing to truck the puppies around so young and since deposits are non refundable I hate to give up money, find out I dont want one they have to offer then be "out" because I didnt have information up front.
I'm thinking this isn't a good idea and I hate that but I thought I'd ask here before becoming too judgemental. There is a lot I don't know and maybe I'm overly sensitive.
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Ren-J kennels
Premium Member
Posts : 1,000+
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I think everything sounds ok to me. Unfort sometimes you don't get to pick your puppy especially if it is a show litter, I know a lot of breeders that choose the puppy for the buyer to fit their lifestyle. As for bringing the pups I'm a little confused on that. I was thinking that they would wait until at least 6 weeks to bring them over. My advise to you is if you feel like they are pushing you then théy probably. One thing I learned is that always follow your gut! |
honcho
Basic User
Posts : 2,000+
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If the breeder will not let you go to their house and see the puppies (btw we dont let anyone see them till after they have their first set of shots, but we do weekly videos) The I would not even consider a puppy from them. You need to see the environment they were raised in and meet the parents of the dogs(if dad is on site) We pick puppies for people based on temperment and activity levels, people are fine with this and are happy with the puppies they get, we do make sure they get male or female if they prefer one over the other of course. We do have people over two weeks before the bitch whelps and earlier then that, after that we have no stangers in the house. We lost a litter from Canine herpesvirus and are VERY careful now as per what the specialists told us about the virus. (sorry to stray) So we do ask that any serious people give a $100.00 deposit to reserve a spot on our waiting list, which is refundable if there is not a puppy for them in the litter. This just lets us know who is serious and who isnt. What kind of deposit is this breeder asking for from you?? is it half the puppy price or less? I dont think that what this breeder is asking for is "normal" and I would be quite wary of them. But thats just me...We have been breeding for a decent amount of time and know quite a few reputable breeders and this breeder does not fit the bill. |
Soundtrack
Premium Member
Posts : 1,000+
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this post has been edited 2 time(s)
Sounds fishy to me. I'm more than happy to answer any questions that potential buyers have. I can't see any good reason why they wouldn't be answering your perfectly reasonable request. Seems to me that they just want your money.
And the fact that they want to come to your home with the pups, instead of you going there, suggests that they have something to hide.
I'd be looking elsewhere for a pup. |
misty crazy
Premium Member
Posts : 1,000+
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deposits are normal yes, but this breeder sounds fishy to me, I would not pick a pup based on nothing but a picture and no other info either, not to mention the bringing the pups to your house raises a big flag to me, when the pups are a bit older YOU should be going THERE not the other way around! they should be happy to show you where the pups are raised and to show you the dam at least. they should also be asking you questions, and answering your questions. I personally woul walk away from this breeder.. |
Solimar
Premium Member
Posts : 366
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Can you define highly recommended?
One persons highly recommended can be anothers BYB.
You also never said if the parents had health clearances.
What do the breeders breed for? Conformation? temperament ( something I would REALLY check on as MANY OES I have met have horrid temperaments to the point that more don't then do have good temperaments.
Show?
Working ability?
I do think that the whole thing doesn't sound right. I think you are right to be concerned.
Steph |
WeimsRus
Basic User
Posts : 1,000+
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I would push back a little. Send a message that says you want to have a phone conversation with them. Give them your phone # and when/if they call start asking questions. I have never gotten a dog from someone that would not let me see their facilites. That is red flag number one, to me. The fact that they would like a deposit is not uncommon, that your E-mails are not promply replied to is not either. A litter of puppies, plus working for a living makes for a busy schedual. The whelping box must be cleaned daily, Dam given a time out, pups fed and cleaned, and other things gives you a busy day. Not even to mention, to do it right, schedualing the vet visits. The first 6 weeks are very busy, the Dam cannot do it all. I don't let people play or associate my new pups until the second sets of shots are given. I definantly wouldn't take them off my property until after they can be seperated with the Dam. This being said, unless you have a deposit and were recommended by a previous buyer of my pups you will not know I have a litter until 7 or 8 weeks of age. Sorry for the rambeling but, if your name was recommended to them they might be wanting to get your pick. I would question what difference the price is between a show quality and a pet quality dog is. At two weeks I don't know anyone who could tell the difference.
It's all for the breed, Weims. |
Wildsyde
Premium Member
Posts : 5,000+
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Sounds like RUN from these guys fast! Deliver to your home? NO thanks. I want to see the parents, see the conditions the pups grow up in, want to see how they interact in a place they're comfortable with.
Send $ by those methods? Again, run. |
Featherrun
Premium Member
Posts : 500+
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Most of it sounds reasonable. Sometimes breeders can sound hurried, uncaring or overprotective of their litters, and for good reason.
They are very busy caring for the litter. If you got good recommendations, go ahead and reserve one. However, unless you know the breeder, the lines, other dogs from them or can at least go out and see the breeder's home/kennel personally, I would not even bother. Maybe it is a gut instinct? Write to her and tell her you understand why she might want to pick for you, but you need to see the dogs' environment when the pups are old enough (usually after the first set of shots, but some breeders even wait for the second).
If this is a good litter then they very well may be all snatched up while you are still deciding.
The breeder may be hesitating because you have said up front that you want a pet quality dog and she cannot decide yet (the pups are too young) which dog to choose for you.
Sometimes with good litters you have to let the breeder decide which dog is best for you and your life situation. That can seem difficult at first, because we naturally all want to pick our dogs based on what we feel is cute, and a bond. Trust me on this though, you will still fall in love with your pup whether he is from halfway across the country or right in your town!
The breeder usually knows wwho fits best because they study the litter dynamics. |
Chiaha
Premium Member
Posts : 3,000+
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My normal experience has been that you get contacted when pups are born and if you have the potential to get a puppy (say you want a male and are 2nd or 3rd on the list and there are that many male pups) then the breeder asks for a deposit to hold your place so to speak. Then when the puppies are 7-8 weeks old they start sorting out who will get what, like if you want a pet puppy they may tell you well pup X and pup Y are show puppies you can pick from A and B if that makes sense. All the breeders I know will refund your deposit if you do not like the puppies (in my mind a breeder would never say YOU HAVE TO TAKE A PUPPY). Most breeders will not let you in their homes until the pups have had a first parvo shot because this is the most responsible way to do it. I would seriously run from a breeder who wanted to bring the puppies to my home instead of me going to theirs, this SCREAMS that something is wonky to me. Anyone willing to risk puppies that young by taking them out of the house is not doing anything in the best interest of the puppies...imho. |
Pompeii Ash
Premium Member
Posts : 77
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I think I'm going to pass on the litter and breeder.
The absolute main thing that concerns me is she says 4 of the puppies are spoken for now, she already has taken them out to meet the people wanting them as she collected the deposits.
IMO, they've been exposed to who knows what, have travelled around at a very young age, and from what I can gather she's NOT discriminating between pet and show quality pups.
Puppies are 8 days old today.
While the breeder was highly recommended to me by my vet I just personally don't like that their exposure level is already so high, that without knowing the pups potential she claims two are great show prospects (which is something she is now pushing at me "especially the males!!) and if I'm interested in a female "the female with the unmatching front legs will make a perfect brood".
I may not have experience with breeding dogs myself, I have never show a dog in my life, but I am really wondering just how much she knows herself. Can anything like that really be known at such a young age? |
Demented Psyche
Premium Member
Posts : 2,000+
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FYI, 99% of the time a vet recommends someone...it's no one you want a pup from.
~Morgan
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TriStar Kennels
Premium Member
Posts : 119
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No I don't believe anyone knows a puppy is a show prospect or not before they even have their eyes open.
Unless it's a color DQ or something obvious. But it's hard to see a puppy structurally before they are even upwardly mobile!
Good luck with everything though. And I agree with your decision about not getting a puppy from this breeder. Particularly the driving young puppies around it's ridiculous. |
Fantasias
Premium Member
Posts : 2,000+
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The one thing that makes me immediately say No Way is the bringing the puppies to your house! How silly I would never ever even consider that. EVER!
However, the deposit thing sounds okay, I do non-refundable deposits, helps "weed out" the less serious people And I see nothing wrong with accepting Paypal deposits, I use Paypal for just about everything, it does not make you a bad person!
Also, your vet is probably not the best person to get a recomendation for a breeder from. Some vets deal with a lot of very reputable breeders, but most vets deal with people who are better than BYBs but only because they get shots for their dogs etc.... Basically spend $$$ at that vet's office
Go to the breed parent club and really research breeders, it may be a very long wait, but worth it
Wendy |
WeimsRus
Basic User
Posts : 1,000+
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quote
posted by Pompeii Ash
I think I'm going to pass on the litter and breeder.
The absolute main thing that concerns me is she says 4 of the puppies are spoken for now, she already has taken them out to meet the people wanting them as she collected the deposits.
IMO, they've been exposed to who knows what, have travelled around at a very young age, and from what I can gather she's NOT discriminating between pet and show quality pups.
Puppies are 8 days old today.
While the breeder was highly recommended to me by my vet I just personally don't like that their exposure level is already so high, that without knowing the pups potential she claims two are great show prospects (which is something she is now pushing at me "especially the males!!) and if I'm interested in a female "the female with the unmatching front legs will make a perfect brood".
I may not have experience with breeding dogs myself, I have never show a dog in my life, but I am really wondering just how much she knows herself. Can anything like that really be known at such a young age?
Would be my call. 8 days and out in public, I know I wouldn't seperate them for any amount of time at this age, from the Dam.
It's all for the breed, Weims. |
Grandiose
Premium Member
Posts : 1,000+
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quote
posted by TriStar Kennels
No I don't believe anyone knows a puppy is a show prospect or not before they even have their eyes open.
Unless it's a color DQ or something obvious. But it's hard to see a puppy structurally before they are even upwardly mobile!
I disagree. There are some breeders who have been breeding long enough, and who know thier own lines well enough to "pick them wet" and can tell you who will be pet and who will be show within the first week of life. With amazing accuracy as well!! (The breeders I know who can do this are breeding BIS/BISS winning dogs as well, not just champions...) So yes, there are people who know who is a show prospect before they ever open thier eyes! But the average breeder, no, not generally possible!!
Deposits when the puppies are born are common...it helps the breeder to be sure that when they are turning down homes because they just dont have enough puppies to go around, that they arent turning down a home based on someone saying "Oh, yes, I want one!!" and they really have no real intention of bringing home a puppy!! |
Featherrun
Premium Member
Posts : 500+
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Sounds to me like you have made a good decision. Why sell/home a bitch as "brood" if she is not show quality, (especially if you just want a pet) and yah, the trooping pups around does not sound like the norm.
Good luck in your search, you may just have to widen the area! |
Chiaha
Premium Member
Posts : 3,000+
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I think you made a great decision as well. I will also agree that most times vets references on breeders is not all that great. They tend to go on how well the breeders dogs are taken care of in their eyes and not how great the breeding practices are. Even crappy breeders can take good care of their dogs. I do not know any OES breeders but I know a lady with OES rescue in Texas. That is about it. I wish you the best of luck finding a breeder, a good breeder is well worth the wait! |
Tapestrie Kennel
Premium Member
Posts : 1,000+
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quote
posted by Grandiose
quote
posted by TriStar Kennels
No I don't believe anyone knows a puppy is a show prospect or not before they even have their eyes open.
Unless it's a color DQ or something obvious. But it's hard to see a puppy structurally before they are even upwardly mobile!
I disagree. There are some breeders who have been breeding long enough, and who know thier own lines well enough to "pick them wet" and can tell you who will be pet and who will be show within the first week of life. With amazing accuracy as well!! (The breeders I know who can do this are breeding BIS/BISS winning dogs as well, not just champions...) So yes, there are people who know who is a show prospect before they ever open thier eyes! But the average breeder, no, not generally possible!!
Deposits when the puppies are born are common...it helps the breeder to be sure that when they are turning down homes because they just dont have enough puppies to go around, that they arent turning down a home based on someone saying "Oh, yes, I want one!!" and they really have no real intention of bringing home a puppy!!
Yeah, I would agree with you. With my Whippet litter, I knew who were the nice ones and who wasn't at birth- it was just a matter of putting them into order when they got older. I was completely accurate show vs. pet, but not completely accurate in my order, but pretty close. |
Soundtrack
Premium Member
Posts : 1,000+
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quote
posted by Tapestrie Kennel
quote
posted by Grandiose
quote
posted by TriStar Kennels
No I don't believe anyone knows a puppy is a show prospect or not before they even have their eyes open.
Unless it's a color DQ or something obvious. But it's hard to see a puppy structurally before they are even upwardly mobile!
I disagree. There are some breeders who have been breeding long enough, and who know thier own lines well enough to "pick them wet" and can tell you who will be pet and who will be show within the first week of life. With amazing accuracy as well!! (The breeders I know who can do this are breeding BIS/BISS winning dogs as well, not just champions...) So yes, there are people who know who is a show prospect before they ever open thier eyes! But the average breeder, no, not generally possible!!
Deposits when the puppies are born are common...it helps the breeder to be sure that when they are turning down homes because they just dont have enough puppies to go around, that they arent turning down a home based on someone saying "Oh, yes, I want one!!" and they really have no real intention of bringing home a puppy!!
Yeah, I would agree with you. With my Whippet litter, I knew who were the nice ones and who wasn't at birth- it was just a matter of putting them into order when they got older. I was completely accurate show vs. pet, but not completely accurate in my order, but pretty close.
Yeah, but it sounds like this person is letting the buyers pick their pups. Sure, there are a few breeders that can do this, but the average buyer is not going to be able to tell anything useful about the pup at that age. In my breed, even the color and markings change. |
hi-fi
Premium Member
Posts : 2,000+
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I never had to pay a deposit.. I wouldn't pay a deposit for a puppy I'm not 100% sure I want. I've heard from people a lot that BYB's want you to pick your puppy out with it's like 2 weeks old, pay a deposit, and then you come and get your puppy. |
11/3/2009 1:51:58 PM
