Real Show Dogs - Feeding a Raw Diet

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Topic : Feeding a Raw Diet

Ditzy Dog
Premium Member
Posts : 500+

11/3/2009 7:34:23 PM

I have some questions on feeding a raw diet. I'm interested in learning more just in case this might be something I want to try with my dog in the future.

-What are the benefits of feeding raw?
-What are the cons?
-What exactly is fed in a raw diet?
-Does a raw diet need to be supplemented with vitamins?
-How much is a dog fed with a raw diet?

DD

flamincomet
Premium Member
Posts : 500+

11/3/2009 9:47:51 PM

-What are the benefits of feeding raw?
The benefits are numerous, and differ with each animal. Some of the benefits I have experienced with my animals (1 dog and 2 cats) are; improved coat condition, reduction and/or elimination of tarter, small virtually odorless stool that crumbles away when left in the sun for a few days, less bad breath, more energy (not in a bad way), more consistent weight, improved muscle condition, and the biggest for me: My cats are no longer constantly dehydrated which improves their overall health dramatically, and takes the strain off of vital organs, especially the kidneys (which is why you see so many kibble fed cats dying of renal failure at young ages). I'm sure this is true of dogs as well, but it is more so with cats since they naturally have a very low thirst drive, and are affected more by kibbles incredibly low moisture rate.

-What are the cons?
It takes longer to feed than kibble.
It is more work than kibble (but not as much work as some would assume).
Raw takes up a lot of freezer space.
It can be hard to find the variety you need, depending on the area you live in.

-What exactly is fed in a raw diet?
There are different types of raw diets. I feed the prey model raw diet, because I am a believer that dogs are carnivores. This consists of 80% muscle meat, 10% edible bone, and 10% secreting organ meat (with half of that being liver). These percents can vary with each dog depending on their needs (for example one dog may need more than 10% bone and less muscle meat to maintain firm stool).
Some examples of things I feed:
My organ mix is made up of half beef liver, 1/4 kidney and 1/4 sweet bread.
Some muscle meat I feed is beef, lamb, pork, bison (including heart, gizzards, and various cuts, as long as it's muscle meat), canned green tripe, and canned fish such as jack mackerel and sardines.
Bone meals can be turkey necks, chicken leg quarters, chicken wings/drumsticks, pork ribs, lamb shanks, pork hocks, chicken feet, whole fish, quail and whole chicks and mice for one of my cats.

-Does a raw diet need to be supplemented with vitamins?
Not if fed correctly. I do supplement with salmon oil for the omegas, since I don't feed grass fed meat and because my border collie Spirit is still having dry flaky coat issues, and Vitamin E, to help absorb the salmon oil.

-How much is a dog fed with a raw diet?
Typically 2-4% of it's adult body weight. You have to play around with it for a little bit before you find what's right for your dog.

I've found this thread: www.dogster.com/forums/Raw_Food_Diet/thread/431875 to be a great source of information for people new to feeding raw.

Hope that helped,
Autumn

TriStar Kennels
Premium Member
Posts : 119

11/3/2009 10:04:39 PM

We have recently switched over from high quality kibble to raw diet with our 2 dogs. 7 month old boxer and 13 year old sheltie.

I have found the same benefits as posted above, most notibly for me was the amount of shedding decreased dramatically as did the amount of waste excreted. A raw diet should be better for their teeth, as long as they are given raw bones to chew on from time to time.

We feed a variety of proteins, beef, chicken, bison, elk, duck, turkey, goose as well as an organ mix and tripe. We buy the meat ground up ( muscle meat and bones ground together) and it's in 8 oz. patties. I don't find it hard to feed, but it does take up freezer space. Our sheltie eats one pattie a day and the boxer is eating 4, however they say puppies need to eat 5%-6% of their body weight and adult dogs 2-4% depending on age, activity level, etc. As mentioned above, you need to see what works for your dogs, monitor their weight gain/loss and adjust accordingly.

I also feed vegetables and fruits which I prepare myself. I cook and mash the vegetables and then freeze them in ice cube trays, like you would if making baby food, then I freeze it and feed it with their meat or sometimes seperately for snacks or treats. I feed carrots, sweet potatoes, apples, oranges, pumpkin, tomatoes... pretty much any veggies they'll eat.

They get glucosamine as a supplement, the sheltie gets it for her joints as she has arthritis. I think supplementing is optional and a personal choice, but I think if raw is fed correctly you shouldn't need to supplement.

Overall, I have found more benefit to feeding raw and most likely won't go back to kibble. My girls are happy eating raw and I'm happy with the result.

Good luck with whatever you choose.

Aim High Salukis
Basic User
Posts : 233

11/4/2009 1:09:46 AM

Good topic, mind if I add a few questions? I've thought about it for Giacomo.

-What is the difference in cost? Is it more or less expensive?
-I've heard kibble is better for their teeth. Is there a change in the amount of bones they have to eat?
-I have a dog that is hard to keep weight on. Would raw benefit him in a negative or positive way?

TriStar Kennels
Premium Member
Posts : 119

11/4/2009 9:03:06 AM

this post has been edited 1 time(s)

We priced out the cost of the kibble we were feeding, which was Orijin Puppy for the boxer and Orijin Senior for the sheltie, vs. the cost of the raw and found it to be about .40 cents more a day for what we needed to feed. I would say now that because the boxer is eating more it's possibly costing $.80 to 1.00 more. For us the cost increase was minimal.

We switched to raw because Chili, the boxer, was a bad eater. She wouldn't eat her kibble unless it was drowned in canned food and she was a scrawny little puppy. Once we switched to raw, she ate well and her weight is great. I think, and this is just my opinion, that it is easier to keep weight on/off dogs with raw for a couple of reasons. Firstly, they eat better which for us was the first hurdle. Second, they utilize the food they eat more efficiently and they get more nutrients, etc, which helps with keeping the weight on. Also, you can feed the proteins like chicken, duck or rabbit that have a higher fat content (this is mostly good fats which helps with weight management and coat condition also) or if you have a dog, like my sheltie, who has the opposite weight problem (she's a little chunky in her old age) I feed her a diet containing more lean proteins, like elk, bison or turkey. So for us, the raw is definitely better for weight management.

As for teeth, this is my area of expertise, as in RL I am a dental hygienist happy :)

. The reason that raw is better for the teeth, is because it doesn't contain grains or sugars, anything other than meat and vegetables really because even naturally occuring sugars such as what's in fruit or milk products fall into this category. These things are what we call fermentable carbohydrates, these sugars when mixed with the bacterias found in a mouth (be in human or canine) form plaque, plaque is what causes cavities when it is not removed daily. We people tend to brush our teeth 2 or more times a day (or at least we should be happy :)

haha), so we remove our plaque and that helps decrease the cavity rate. Also going to the dentist for teeth cleanings, etc. Now, most people don't brush their dogs teeth daily or get their teeth cleaned every 6 months ( which I don't recommend for dogs because they put them under general for this and that's always a risk in itself). So because feeding raw eliminates so many of the fermentable carbohydrates that dogs get on kibble it dramatically reduces the plaque, cavity and tartar formation in dogs mouths. All that being said, dogs still need to eat hard, crunchy foods to excersize their jaws, clean their teeth, etc. So for this, we feed raw marrow bones usually beef or bison leg bones, the dogs can't really crunch up the bone and swallow it ( at least mine don't) but the eat out the marrow which is great for them and they chew and scrape on the bone itself which is great for the teeth.
Also feeding raw crunchy vegetables is another option, things like carrots or other root vegetables if they'll eat them that way. Mine prefer them cooked, but will chew on them raw but mostly just make a big mess so it's an outdoor activity for them! I read another article once that suggested canines are better able to absorb the nurtrients in vegetables and fruits if they are cooked, I'm not sure if this is true or not, but I do cook mine just for simplicity of feeding.

All that being said about the teeth, my dogs still get their treats, which I would qualify as the same as human "junk food" because they like it. They like toast and peanut butter for "breakfast" with me, they love fruit of any description and Chili has an affinity for milk bones... i know they are crap, but she loves them and a one small one a day won't hurt her. This is what I believe, they eat healthy all the time so I feel that the same goes for dogs as people, everything in moderation.

Hope this answers your questions, and I didn't confuse you on the teeth thing happy :)

Kanuck
Premium Member
Posts : 193

11/4/2009 9:11:31 AM

this post has been edited 1 time(s)

My reply would pretty much mirror flamincomet so I won't repeat it all here, just say "me too". happy :)

quote
posted by Aim High Salukis
-What is the difference in cost? Is it more or less expensive?
-I've heard kibble is better for their teeth. Is there a change in the amount of bones they have to eat?
-I have a dog that is hard to keep weight on. Would raw benefit him in a negative or positive way?

The difference in cost really depends on where you live, your access to different shopping opportunities, can you buy directly from farmers/hunters who process their own kills, can you buy in bulk (we bought a new freezer for this and its paid for itself in less than a year), what you are feeding now, and other factors. For us, we are paying about the same raw as we were for kibble (large adult Greyhound). What you also have to look at though are cost savings in other areas. Our boy hasn't needed his teeth vet cleaned in 3 years and we've dropped the expensive supplements for his dry skin in favor of the much cheaper (and more effective in his case) fish body oil pills.

Is kibble better for the teeth? On kibble I had to do a weekly cleaning minimum. Since switching to raw its down to a weekly inspection (just a few seconds) and a monthly cleaning if necessary just because I'm picky and he favors chewing on one side.

Our Grey came to us from the rescue still several pounds underweight and we had to practically beg him to eat peanut butter balls (and other such weight gain additives) for a month to get any weight on him at all, and regardless of the kibble we tried (6) he just wouldn't gain. With raw he not only gained but we had to scale back a bit to avoid a "round" Greyhound. Now its pretty easy to adjust for a slim figure in summer and a few extra pounds for insulation in our cold winters. YMMV, but of my raw feeding friends, I don't know a single one with underweight issues.

flamincomet
Premium Member
Posts : 500+

11/4/2009 9:15:14 AM

-What is the difference in cost? Is it more or less expensive?
It really depends on where you live and what you have access to. If you live in an area full of hunters and slaughter houses/butchers that are willing to part with their freezer burned meat/scraps for free/low cost, raw can be extremely cost effective. We just found out that the local meat locker will let us go through their scraps and sell us whatever we pick out for 10 cents a lb! If there is a co-op in your area so you can order in bulk that helps a ton too.
If you're just buying your meats from the local grocery store, it's going to be more expensive. I did that for a while, and though I didn't keep tract of exact expenses, we were able to feed 2 medium sized dogs and 2 cats raw, on only my husband's income delivering pizza.

-I've heard kibble is better for their teeth. Is there a change in the amount of bones they have to eat?
Kibble is definitely not better for teeth, it's a myth that the "crunchy texture" helps stop tarter build-up, in fact it does the opposite. Kibble in fact can stick to the teeth, and provides an ideal environment for bacterial growth. This is why over 85% of dogs over the age of 3 have periodontal disease, and horrible rancid breath.
Not to mention a large majority of dogs inhale their food as it is, not much chewing going on.

I can personally attest to the fact that raw is better for teeth that kibble. When I adopted Spirit she had huge gobs of tarter on her back teeth, and horrible breath. Switched to raw her back teeth are absolutely SQUEAKY clean, not a speck of tarter on them and though she has occasional bad breath, it's nothing like the constant stench before. She has had a little build-up of tarter on her canines, but that is because I wasn't giving her enough big RMBs, now that I've started to do that, I can see the tarter receding already.
Fyre, a cat we adopted at about 3 years of age, had absolutely horrendous teeth, and though they still have tarter build-up, you can actually SEE the enamel of her teeth now after starting raw, and they are still improving.
Spectre, my other cat, was started on raw fairly young. Before we started him I could see signs of tarter starting to build-up. His teeth are blindingly white now, absolutely no tarter on them whatsoever.

It's not so much the edible bone, as it is the nice big raw meaty bones they really have to work at. Spirit can crunch through chicken leg quarters easy, but give her a lamb shank, and it takes her a good 45 minutes-hour to finish it. Ideally large RMBs should be part of the diet to begin with, so there shouldn't really have to be a change.

-I have a dog that is hard to keep weight on. Would raw benefit him in a negative or positive way?
It really differs. Raw is known for helping to keep a consistent weight on a dog, but you really have to be careful with how much you feed, because it can also put weight on a dog very quickly. Spirit had a very hard time gaining weight on kibble, and it took a little time, but now she is actually a little too "plump" for my liking, I would say close to borderline overweight (I like to keep my animals pretty trim), so I'm having to cut back how much she eats. My cats on the other hand are maintaining their weight perfectly, when I took Spectre into the vet, she was very impressed with his weight, considering he is a neutered male who are notorious for being overweight.

Autumn

TriStar Kennels
Premium Member
Posts : 119

11/4/2009 11:55:23 AM

I forgot to add earlier but two other things I have read about concerning raw diets are that they reduce the risk of bloat and certain types of cancers.

Now, this is just somethings I've read, however I do tend to believe it because of the logic in the arguments. I'm not sure if it is a "guarantee" or not, but it does make some sense.

They say that the risk of bloat is decreased because raw food doesn't swell like kibble in the stomach, it tends to reduce the production of gases in the stomach, which can cause the stomach to distend which can cause bloat. And they say dogs tend to eat more slowly which also can aid in the reduction of the risk of bloat. However, as we all know bloat can happen anytime not matter how much prevention we put in place.

As for the cancers, it is simply because raw diets being all natural they don't contain preservatives, chemicals, fillers or by-products like all kibble foods do. And it is my belief that the less chemicals we consume the better.

The raw meat we buy is certified organic and hormone and antibiotic free. Which is probably better than the meat we eat ourselves!

Ditzy Dog
Premium Member
Posts : 500+

11/4/2009 4:42:51 PM

Thanks for your answers so far everyone. I just have a few more questions.

-I have a small dog, only about 10-11 inches at the shoulder, would she be able to handle those large RMBs?
-If she can't handle large RMBs how could I work them into her diet if I did switch her to raw?

DD

Dark Oak Kennels
Premium Member
Posts : 37

11/4/2009 5:13:49 PM

My sheltie loves raw bones. I just try to buy her smaller sized ones. The store we buy their food at sells all different sizes of bones.
However if all we have are big ones, we will cut them in half lenghtwise with a power saw for her and then she can chew them to her content and also get all the marrow out. She is 13 years old and manages quite well this way. You could possibly get a butcher to cut them up for you to accomodate you small dog. If you do cut them up yourself, make sure you wear safety glasses as the bone will break apart in the saw and you don't want to get it in your eyes.

Chiaha
Premium Member
Posts : 3,000+

11/4/2009 5:37:21 PM

RMBs is a BARF concept really. BARF and Raw are different. She would do fine on a raw diet just feed appropriate sized bone she can crunch and eat. I have a friend who feeds her Chi chicken wings and small baby back type pork ribs and she has no problems eating them. Its funny to watch her eat them really. I feed a prey model raw diet and have for over 5 years now and it is fantastic. I do not supplement at all. I will never swap back! I found the cost can be a bit higher per week (depending on what you feed) but overall with the health benefits and longer life it pays you back a hundred times over. Good luck if you choose to go this route. Not sure if someone mentioned but if you have yahoo there are some GREAT yahoo groups for both BARF and Raw feeding. They really helped me when I got started and I recommend them to everyone.

Ditzy Dog
Premium Member
Posts : 500+

11/4/2009 5:45:18 PM

I was just reading up on the differnces between a prey model diet and a BARF diet.

-Which in your opinion is a "better" diet, the prey model diet or the BARF diet?

DD

flamincomet
Premium Member
Posts : 500+

11/4/2009 7:13:34 PM

I've never heard RMBs be referred to as strictly a BARF concept. I have talked with numerous prey model raw feeders and they all use that term to describe just what we're saying... raw meaty bones. RBMs can be anything from beef ribs to chicken leg quarters.

OP, you have to decide for yourself which is better for you and your dog. I personally feed prey model because I believe dogs are carnivores, and have no need for fruits and veggies.

Autumn

TriStar Kennels
Premium Member
Posts : 119

11/4/2009 7:19:02 PM

I also was not aware that bones were only part of the BARF concept. I fed my dogs raw bones even when they ate kibble food.

I guess I'm somewhere in the middle. I believe that dogs DO NOT need grains, cereals or milk products.

I do however feed them the veggies and fruits because a few extra vitamins never hurt anyone. But they can get most minerals and vitamins they need if you feed organ meats too.

I think if you switch to raw you will find what works for you and your dogs. As long as it's done with some knowledge and research on canine nutritional needs I think you can't go wrong with raw diets.

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