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Author Topic : Interesting......
 Dreisaiah Hundehutte
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3/10/2010 11:15:17 PM reply with quote send message to Dreisaiah Hundehutte Object to Post   



vs.







vs.






vs.






vs.






vs.






Interesting how if you get enough people to like the same thing as you, you can create a completely different breed and still call it what it was originally named as!

 Brigadoon Border Collies
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3/11/2010 12:33:44 AM reply with quote send message to Brigadoon Border Collies Object to Post

this post has been edited 1 time(s)

Or..

Australian show



vs American working


vs British working/show

 Dreisaiah Hundehutte
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3/11/2010 1:36:26 AM reply with quote send message to Dreisaiah Hundehutte Object to Post

Crazy!!
 Wayward Kennels
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3/11/2010 2:04:33 AM reply with quote send message to Wayward Kennels Object to Post

I was interested in the Collie pictures to see the Australian example (though with a tad more coat) is actually the closest to the little welsh hill collies which have remained surprisingly consistent in type/conformation for many many years.

The British example has way more leg than most BC's in the country work/show and past/present.



All breed standards are subjective and there will be variation within a country as well as globally. Not everyones interpretation is the same which is why there is a place for everyone..... and one judges preference may not be the next. Most breeds have changed from what they originally were even within the country of origin.
Interestingly breed standards around the world do differ...... I for one would not like to see one 'global type' for all breeds of dogs.


With regard to my main breed....... GSP's
Some of you may find this article interesting there are several fundamental differences in the breed standards yet they remain surprisingly similar.

66.85.66.182/chapter.html
 flamincomet
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3/11/2010 3:06:22 AM reply with quote send message to flamincomet Object to Post

Breeds are expected to change in physical appearance over periods of time and in different parts of the world. Just because it looks like the breed in type and appearance, doesn't make it the same breed though, IMO. If you breed away from what the breed was intended to be, you are breeding away from what the breed is, and that is where I have a problem. Not just that they may look a little different.

Autumn
 Brigadoon Border Collies
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3/11/2010 3:38:07 AM reply with quote send message to Brigadoon Border Collies Object to Post

I understand people's interpretation of the breed standard may be different. What bothers me is when a judge will flat out go AGAINST standard just to go with a certain type.

Wayward, I don't know what working dogs you're referring to, but never in my life have I seen a true working BC that looks anything like the first example I posted.

I don't know where people get this idea that long legs are bad in the breed. The dog I posted as a British example is a British import from ISDS working lines, and is 23 inches tall. He is very tall but also perfectly proportionate. These 'leggy' BCs that everyone dislikes so much are the only types of dogs you would see working on a farm. The legs should be proportionate to the body. Short legs and a long body, like what is seen so commonly in the show ring, is not anything like the breed originated.
 Brigadoon Border Collies
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3/11/2010 3:39:21 AM reply with quote send message to Brigadoon Border Collies Object to Post

quote
posted by Dreisaiah Hundehutte
Crazy!!
One of the worst things about BCs is while we have so many different types, only ONE wins in the show ring. The one type, unfortunately, that is the farthest from a working dog.
 Forever_Darkness
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3/11/2010 3:47:55 AM reply with quote send message to Forever_Darkness Object to Post

I have to make a comment on this with my breeds later. It is very very interesting.

 CascadeRanch
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3/11/2010 5:20:01 AM reply with quote send message to CascadeRanch Object to Post

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quote
I understand people's interpretation of the breed standard may be different. What bothers me is when a judge will flat out go AGAINST standard just to go with a certain type.

Assumably with your strong public dislike for the Austalian type of the Border Collie that comment was directed towards it.

That entire statement is an oxymoron if so. You claim to understand people's interpretation of the breed standard yet get upset because a judge has a type preference (Which may be that particular judges interpretation of the standard whether you choose to agree with their interpretation or not).

I personally like all types of the border collie and RESPECT everyones work and dedication to the breed and what THEIR INTERPRETATION TO THE STANDARD IS.

My preferred type is actually the "Australian" Border Collie. They are more balanced in structure than the other types imo - which the standard clearly states the balance that a BC should have: "The body, from prosternum to point of buttocks, is slightly longer than the height at the withers with the length to height ratio being approximately 10:9." and the one closest to it IN MY INTERPRETATION OF THE STANDARD is the "Australian" BC.

The one thing I would fault on the Austalian BC pictured above is a smidge too much neck rough. Others I have seen do not have this extreme of a coat.

Needless to say the point of my slight rant was I am sick of hearing you down someone elses hard work because its not what you interpret the standard to be. You can't classify that all BC's not of your type can't work on a farm - there are plenty in other types capable of doing it and DO.

*Zips up flame suit and steps off of soap box*

Edited to Add:


BORDERFAME MYSTERY LABEL HSAs HSBs "Rain"


About Borderfame:
Founded in Perth, Western Australia in 1982 with our original quality stock from Minimbah Border Collies, our aims are to continue to produce truly versatile Border Collies that not only excel in Conformation, Obedience, Agility, and Herding but also in other active performance sports, whilst still retaining the good temperament that the breed is noted for, making it a wonderful loyal family pet.

Sally's Story:
www.borderfame.com/sally.htm

 SureShot
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3/11/2010 6:38:30 AM reply with quote send message to SureShot Object to Post

Just once it'd be nice to have a thread about border collies that doesn't turn into an argument, but I think I'm asking too much.
 CascadeRanch
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3/11/2010 6:44:03 AM reply with quote send message to CascadeRanch Object to Post

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I too am personally sick of it.. mainly the bashing of a certain type with no truth or facts behind it. This is the first time I've said anything in regards to it because enough is enough on bashing that type.
 griffin
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3/11/2010 6:51:58 AM reply with quote send message to griffin Object to Post

I have to say that my very imprecise finger measurements lead me to believe both the "Australian" BC and the working BC are roughly in the same proportion leg to body length. The biggest differences are 1) coat and 2) chest depth the 'Australian" BC has way more coat and a deeper chest than the working type.

The deeper chest seems to be a bit of a trend in the modern breeds (see the great dane and boxer in the OP).

Oh and probably dumb question but what breed is that last one in the OP?

grif,
 LoupGarou
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3/11/2010 8:12:51 AM reply with quote send message to LoupGarou Object to Post

If people would stop feeding this particular troll, maybe it would stop posting. Based on posting history alone, did anyone honestly think this thread was going to be about Dobermans, Great Danes, Rottweilers, Boxers, or whateverthatdogisinthelastpicture?

<rant> I am so sick of the Border Collie attacks and whining on these forums that I wish that Jeff could program them to instaban anyone who posted a message that compared types of BCs, in pictures or in text. I hate leggy TFTs, too, but see their place in the TFT world and even own one that approaches legginess (Mercie). What I *don't* do is annoy everyone with random posts about how I hate them every few weeks. You don't like the divisions in the breed? Fine. Breed what you want to breed, educate the *interested* public, and leave the rest of us alone.

For the record: I feel the so-called Working American BC is ugly. It's an embarrassment and is as far removed from the original breed type as my TFTs might be. It looks like a mutt. The Australian type might be a bit too extreme for some people's taste, but you've got to figure that some of what you're seeing there is an illusion caused by grooming. The bottom dog, in my opinion, shows a fine blend of traits that can create a true dual purpose dog. But I guess expecting some of the people on both sides to work toward that goal would be too much to ask of narrow-minded people who are more interested in in-fighting and being "right" rather than in the benefit of the breed. Yeah, it's not like the dog fancy has any other wolves at the door, or anything.

I'm sure I'll get slammed for this post and honestly, I don't care. I'm off to school for a test today and won't be home during much of the time that people post--yay! But seriously, if the topic is that important, discuss it between yourselves and work it out like adults. Maybe take it to the BC for-- oh yeah. Right. Go figure. </rant>
 Wyldriver
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3/11/2010 9:27:46 AM reply with quote send message to Wyldriver Object to Post

quote
posted by LoupGarou

For the record: I feel the so-called Working American BC is ugly. It's an embarrassment and is as far removed from the original breed type as my TFTs might be. It looks like a mutt.

I tend to avoid posting on these types of threads because my views on Border Collies differ from many people on this board, but I have to respond to this comment. Calling the working Border Collie "ugly" or an "embarrassment" just proves how sad the state of things has become in the American dog fancy. Having so much fixation on appearance alone (and using appearance as a judge for potential working ability) is just flat out bad reasoning, period. The only way to get good working dogs is to breed specifically for that. Period. Breeding moderately built show-line dogs, or calling dogs that don't make the grade in the ring "performance prospects" does not make them working dogs.

A "working dog" becomes such when its ability as a talented, biddable stockdog is proven. It often takes months or years of training to see whether or not even a working-line dog makes the grade. Sure, most of them "look" like they could work, structurally, but even in working dogs, there is such a varation in levels of ability and strengths and weaknesses that it's almost staggering. Herding ability is such a strange trait; hard to breed for, hard to keep. It's a lot like breeding for conformation in some ways. You have to be careful which two dogs you cross; like conformation faults, problems in the dog's working ability are passed down as well. If you breed two dogs that are poor outrunners, the puppies will probably reflect that trait. That's why simply breeding in working blood to show lines rarely results in good working dogs, or even added working ability. It's not just some little thing that can be added or taken away at whim; it's an organic, tricky, real part of the dog that has taken farmers hundreds (or thousands) of years to perfect. Just like, say, a bad front, some working "faults" are incredibly hard to get rid of once they are put into the gene pool.

I may be preaching to the choir here, but I don't particularly care. Disagree with me all you want, but the facts are pretty clear. There is a reason for all this "needless" fighting. The reason that the Australian show line BC's get so much flack from the working crowd is that for the most part, they are simply not good on stock. For a Border Collie, that is unacceptable, since that is their purpose. I should clarify that having a few basic level herding titles or an HIC is not proof of herding ability. My Boston Terrier has an HIC. Those don't prove much except that the dog has some interest and is somewhat trainable (will follow the handler around, fetching stock to them in an arena). The real test for a working dog is whether or not the dog is useful on a farm (showing independent thinking and natural talent so that the handler can trust the dog to do its job from a great distance)and/or the dog can successfully compete in open-field trials.

For the last time: what matters in this breed, anyway (or should matter) primarily (i.e. before EVERYTHING ELSE) is working ability. And yes, a big part of (superior) working ability is solid structure and a good temperament--so don't try that argument. The danger with breeding BC's strictly for show is that that working ability is diluted and gradually lost or diminished over time. That is a very sad thing, since Border Collie's are the world's elite herding dogs.
 Larkenloch
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3/11/2010 9:31:38 AM reply with quote send message to Larkenloch Object to Post

I think the British Working/Show one is the nicest one, but I'm only looking at it from an "Oh that's a nice looking dog." I know diddly squat about the breed's standards.

I have an issue with American Irish Setters, too heavily built for me :/
 Sierra Rose
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3/11/2010 9:34:54 AM reply with quote send message to Sierra Rose Object to Post

going off the bc pics...if i were to ever have a border collie seeing as how i have no desire for a working dog....give me the australion show type any day...and for that matter give me a female since i have the perfect name for her...

Borderfames Im A Barbie Girl

yes i do dream of one day having a borderfame collie.
 Squiggels
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3/11/2010 10:02:41 AM reply with quote send message to Squiggels Object to Post

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I do not show border collies or know the standards, but I own one. At the facility I train at, my trainer has been breeding and training working border collies. IMO if we bred and kept working dogs based on coat/ looks, we would be in trouble.

I have never heard of a working BC picked based on coat, it is always, how much drive the dog has, is the dog too soft etc. All of her dogs have varying coats, but yes they do tend to have long legs. Many of her males she neuters young, because she believes It makes their legs longer happy :)

I have been to the herding trials and the same thing there. People pick their working border collies based on what they are capable of. I will add that I rarely see the the big full fluffy coat ones. My trainer doesn't have then because she says when they work in the mud, they are a pain to clean, that and she feels they overheat quicker.

We live in California, nice most of the year but summers in the 100s F.
 Squiggels
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3/11/2010 10:05:10 AM reply with quote send message to Squiggels Object to Post

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I like the first doberman better (sad but I prefer cropped ears)

and I think the supposed American working BC looks a little like a Kelpie (but wrong colors) happy :)
 Brigadoon Border Collies
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3/11/2010 10:20:38 AM reply with quote send message to Brigadoon Border Collies Object to Post

This was not supposed to turn into a debate about Australian vs Working.

I just wanted to shed some light on how far this breed has gotten from its original appearance, just like the OP did.

People these days are changing breeds because they didn't like their original temperament. Well.. if you don't like the temperament of a Dobe or a BC, then don't get one. SIMPLE. The Australian BCs that I've met have very little in common with working BCs in every aspect but almost most significant is the change in temperament. Australian show BCs share more in common with a Golden or an Aussie than their working 'cousins'. There have been studies that show that Working lines and Australian lines are as far separate genetically as a Horse and a Zebra.

Rationalize it all you want, but I see my breed slipping away and it upsets me. I have no reason NOT to post my opinions when such a thread comes up.
 Brigadoon Border Collies
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3/11/2010 10:25:19 AM reply with quote send message to Brigadoon Border Collies Object to Post

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By the way, EVERY BC breeder claims to be retaining herding instinct. Yeah, big whoop. That dog has two herding titles. I would be much more impressed if the dog worked daily, or had any Open level titles. That dog has two novice level titles, which is nothing compared to the kind of work they would do on a real farm. I won't lie, my dogs aren't herding titled, because I don't care for trialing. I still work them every week at least, and they do 4-5 hours of work. Even if that ONE dog can work really well, thats ONE dog. Its still completely ridiculous to say Borderfame is breeding for herding instinct, anyone who knows anything about the breed, even show breeders, would tell you that.
 Squiggels
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3/11/2010 10:29:49 AM reply with quote send message to Squiggels Object to Post

Why are they called Australian Border Collies? They look like our show border collies as well.

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In the United Kingdom, the international championship show Crufts was first held in 1891.