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Author Topic : Colors
 Marchen Shih Tzus
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7/13/2008 1:58:15 PM reply with quote send message to Marchen Shih Tzus Object to Post   

I have started searching for shih tzu color genetics.
This is a list of AKC standard colors. I figured this would be a good starting point.

Black
Black & White
Blue
Blue & White
Brindle
Brindle & White
Gold
Gold & White
Liver
Liver & White
Red
Red & White
Silver
Silver & White
Black Gold & Silver
Black Gold & White
Black White & Silver
Silver Gold & White
White
 Marchen Shih Tzus
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7/13/2008 2:00:43 PM reply with quote send message to Marchen Shih Tzus Object to Post

Here is an article about shih tzu genetics, if anyone can use this to help come up with the information needed. I am just starting to look at it:
www.regeneratshihtzus.com/Colors.html
 Marchen Shih Tzus
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7/13/2008 4:30:35 PM reply with quote send message to Marchen Shih Tzus Object to Post

Here is my go at this:

For the loci, the most dominant gene is listed first
I made some slight changes to simplify it and remove extra things that we won't be including such as different markings. If we can agree on this part, the next part would just be listing all the different combinations.

Locus: A
AsAs: Solid
Asay: Solid, muted carrier
ayay: Restricted Color, such as muting with yellow

Locus: B
BB: Black
Bb: Black with liver carrier
bb: Liver

Locus: D
DD: Density of Black/Brown
Dd: Carrier of dilution of black/brown
dd: Dilution of black/brown

Locus: E
E,E: Intense Color
E,e: Carrier of black/brown blocker
E,ebr: Brindle carrier
ebr,ebr: Brindle
ebr,e: Brindle
e,e: Blocks black and brown

Locus: S
S,S: Solid, No Spotting
S,si: Carrier of white markings
si,si: Symmetrical pattern of white markings added to the color



To sum up how we would get the different colors:
Black is pretty simple
Black and white would include B,B and si,si
Blue is from BB with dd
Blue and white would include BB, dd, and sisi
Brindle would include ebr
Brindle and white would include ebr and sisi
Gold is using ayay and BB or bb
Gold and white uses ayay, bb or BB, and sisi
Liver is pretty simple, using bb
Liver and white uses bb and sisi
Red uses ay,ay,b,b,D,D,e,e
Red and white uses above plus sisi
Silver is As,As,B,B,d,d,E,E,S,S
silver and white would be As,As,B,B,d,d,E,E,si,si

Does that look good to everyone? I tried to remove some of the excess ones that we could get rid of and/or combine to make things a little simpler.

Anyone have any suggestions on an easy way to hammer out all of the possible combinations?

 Marchen Shih Tzus
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7/13/2008 4:44:36 PM reply with quote send message to Marchen Shih Tzus Object to Post

However, if they are looking for the exact genetics than this is the non-simplified version:

Locus: A
As: Solid
ay: Restricted Color, such as muting with yellow

Locus: B
B: Black
b: Liver

Locus: C
C: Full pigmentation
ch: Chinchilla, reduces amount of red/yellow that comes through
ce: Extreme dilution

Locus: D
D: Density of Black/Brown
d: Dilution of black/brown

Locus: E
E: Intense Color
ebr: Brindle
e: Blocks black and brown

Locus: G
G: Leads to greying or silvering
g: Allows black to remain black

Locus: S
S: Solid, No Spotting
si: Symmetrical pattern of white markings added to the color
 Marchen Shih Tzus
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7/13/2008 7:29:52 PM reply with quote send message to Marchen Shih Tzus Object to Post

Erased because I answered my own question haha
 Marchen Shih Tzus
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7/13/2008 8:38:12 PM reply with quote send message to Marchen Shih Tzus Object to Post

Please see the other post with the corrected/updated genetics.
 Marchen Shih Tzus
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7/13/2008 8:43:32 PM reply with quote send message to Marchen Shih Tzus Object to Post

To sum things up, here is the locus I ended up going with:

Locus: A
AsAs: Solid
Asay: Solid, muted carrier
ayay: Restricted Color, such as muting with yellow

Locus: B
BB: Black
Bb: Black with liver carrier
bb: Liver

Locus: C
CC: Full Pigmentation
Cch: Carrier of chinchilla
chch: Chinchilla, Reduction of red and yellow pigmentation

Locus: D
DD: Density of Black/Brown
Dd: Carrier of dilution of black/brown
dd: Dilution of black/brown

Locus: E
E,E: Intense Color
E,e: Carrier of black/brown blocker
E,ebr: Brindle carrier
ebr,ebr: Brindle
ebr,e: Brindle
e,e: Blocks black and brown

Locus: G
GG: Causes silver or grey (Typically born black but changes after 6 weeks to silver. For the case of this game, I would suggest we consider this simply silver)
Gg: Leads to gradual greying with maturity (For the sake of simplicity, I would suggest we consider this carrying silver)
gg: Black stays black, no silver

Locus: S (White markings could also be sp, which is irregular markings, but I figured for the game it is just going to be considered as having white, so I just chose one)
S,S: Solid, No Spotting
S,si: Carrier of white markings
si,si: Symmetrical pattern of white markings added to the color
 Arden_Farms
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7/13/2008 9:00:18 PM reply with quote send message to Arden_Farms Object to Post

Thats awsome. I've been doing some research on the topic myself but you've dont just a fab job so far!
 Midgard Yellow
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7/13/2008 9:04:37 PM reply with quote send message to Midgard Yellow Object to Post

I looked it through best as I could and so far you're doing a wonderful job!

 Marchen Shih Tzus
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7/13/2008 9:10:22 PM reply with quote send message to Marchen Shih Tzus Object to Post

Now if everyone ends up agreeing with that, we will need to come up with the percentages. I think that is where it is going to get difficult.

We could just say they are all equal? Or try to come up with percentages based on dominance/recessive genes.

If we choose to go equal, that would be 7% for each color choice.

If I look at the dominant genes and try to come up with percentages, they don't come out as I would expect. So we may want to go with equal percentages? Anyway, check this out:

Solid Black - 10%
Black and White - 9%
Blue - 8%
Blue and White - 7%
Brindle - 8%
Brindle and White - 6%
Gold - 5%
Gold and White - 4%
Red - 6%
Red and White - 5%
Liver - 8%
Liver and White - 7%
Silver - 9%
Silver and White - 8%

At first I was thinking that wouldn't be a very accurate representation, but I suppose they are all so close it really doesn't make that much of a difference. For example, gold and white should be the least likely due to the specific recessive genes you need to get that, but I have a gold and white at home and don't consider him to be that rare haha. But let me know what you think!
 LenaLee
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7/13/2008 11:49:01 PM reply with quote send message to LenaLee Object to Post

White - this almost does not exist.

If they do they are not really white as in white but would have cream points and ears will be cream etc.

90% of shih tzu are parti colors.
Almost all shih tzu in the ring are Gold and white or red and white. Few black and whites.

10% will be solids BUT most will be solid black.

I won't even talk about liver or blue.

FYI - I show shih tzu in real life and have bred BIS and BISS winners.

 LenaLee
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7/13/2008 11:53:37 PM reply with quote send message to LenaLee Object to Post

Also that website is not even a reputable breeder.

More of a backyard breeder.

And in Real Life most shih tzu will be gold and white.So I think a larger precentage of shih tzu should be gold and white.

Also there are few solids in real life especially in the ring. MOst exotic colors like chocolate (which is really liver) show people do not breed for.

Since this is a dog show game, we should maybe not include liver and blue?

Blue bred to blue in RL supposedly causes problems. (I don't know never had a blue nor would I want one in RL and so I would not want 1 in the game)

2 black ad whites will produce gold and whites
but
2 gold and whites will NOT produce b/w

1 parent has to be solid for the litter to have solid pups.
 LenaLee
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7/14/2008 12:27:57 AM reply with quote send message to LenaLee Object to Post

Suggestion

The KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) rule is golden. If albinos are insanely rare in your breed, don’t waste time with that gene. However, we’ll try to implement as much detail as we can so you use it if you want.


That above was posted by site owners

Since in REAL LIFE no one really makes it a point to show
liver, liver and white, blue, blue and white

WE SHOULD not get those colors into the game. Also the livers will have liver pigment and the eyes will be greenish in shade. And the blues will have blue pigment on paw pads and eye rims etc.


I say majority of dogs be:
gold and white
red and white
brindle and white
black and white
and the rest
black
solid gold black mask
red
brindle
 Arden_Farms
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7/14/2008 8:55:15 AM reply with quote send message to Arden_Farms Object to Post

Leena,

I have to start an argument. I know you breed and show in the phillipens (s/p?) and so i am not as exspert as you. I just noticed that your comments where that you see more of the gold and white... my understanding is that in recent years gold and whites have become the "popular" color because they're "more flashy".

My question is this... if a breed is seen more in the show ring because its popular and flashy... does that automatically equate that the breed as a whole is more "predisposed" to gold and white dogs?

I have to kind of lean abit towards Marches go because from what i've read and understand the black and white is more dominant from a genetic standpoint... and from a "traditional" stand point is really more disirable...

As these dogs being traditionally holy animals breed so much as to prdocue very spcific markings...


i agree with your kiss analogy but if we want to start an argument about coloration lets get into the improtance of spcific markings in the breed, shall we...?

I dont mean litterally... i only say this as an anaology... with color varity being so close together is it really nessisary to

argue wither gold is predominatant over black?

you have to ask yourself... if you both agree that black is the predominant base color and that the most predominant combination is "X" and white... then it would only stand to reason that black and white would be the most predominant from a genetic standpoint

My vote goes to Black and White
 Arden_Farms
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7/14/2008 9:03:14 AM reply with quote send message to Arden_Farms Object to Post

quote
posted by LenaLee


Since in REAL LIFE no one really makes it a point to show
liver, liver and white, blue, blue and white


Also... I understand that in the show curcit it is not the popular thing to show dogs of these colors.. but needless to say dogs of these colors do exsist in the breed and Jeff has been very spicific threwout the years that he wants the game to be realistic...

in REAL LIFE you say no one really makes a point to show live, liver and white, blue and blue and white...


but by your own additance these colors in the breed exsist and are therefore variables in the genetics....
 LenaLee
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7/14/2008 10:09:10 AM reply with quote send message to LenaLee Object to Post

It's not only in the Philippines that most show dogs are gold and white.

It's also in the USA and Canada.

And the reason they exist more is because they are bred more and b/w are not bred as much.

Standard states all markings, but in RL a badly marked b/w will never see it in the show ring.

So even if b/w is dominant there are not many of them, because no on breeds them as much.

So you wish to include blue and white and liver and white,. but what about the lethal genes when the blue and whites are bred together? There is supposed to be a lethal gene.
 LenaLee
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7/14/2008 10:13:57 AM reply with quote send message to LenaLee Object to Post

BTW Arden Farms

If you wish to go into research IT WAS the GOLD and WHITE with perfect markings that was most popular and most wanted in the ancient days NOT the b/w.

And through b/w is more dominant since no one really breeds a lot of them, there are more g/w.


 LenaLee
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7/14/2008 10:16:11 AM reply with quote send message to LenaLee Object to Post

BTW liver and blue are recessive.

Another reason they don't pop up too often.

BUT many puppy farmers breed for those colors and tout them as rare.

I feel they should not be included in the game or if they are maybe .05% only of the population.

 LenaLee
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7/14/2008 12:11:51 PM reply with quote send message to LenaLee Object to Post

www.pienji.com



My personal joke is: All Shih Tzu are Gold and White. This certainly isn't true, as we know, but it is more true than perhaps it should be. Sophia is a very neutral tan and white- in the horse world, I would have referred to her as being 'Liver Dun.' There is liver on the registration papers- shouldn't she register as liver and white? Absolutely not. Liver, as I found, has nothing to do with coat color and everything to do with SKIN pigment. All Shih Tzu are either basically black, liver or blue pointed ('points' being eye rims & nose). A liver dog has a liver or reddish colored nose, and no black hair anywhere- liver does not support any black pigment. Sophia is, of course, gold and white. What else? For more on how the skin pigment works, see the page on Blues.

Fading: You will see many dogs in the ring that are very light gray or tan and white. Are they registered as silver and white? Usually not- usually they are (what else?) gold and white. We have another neat gene in the breed that fades color (the G series). What will start out as a darkly colored pup goes light gray in about a year. It's still gold and white or, perhaps, red and white- and for registration purposes, you can only register the pup as the color it is at the time of registration. My boy, Bob, started out deep gold and white. (Check out the difference in color from his puppy picture to his championship color!)

Greying: This is different from fading. In fading the color lightens and fades, this gene changes the color to a silver as rich as the original color. The gene for this is called the Chinchilla gene (CH series). It will be a while before you know if you have this gene, they can still be close to the normal color at well over a year.

Banding: This is a fairly well ignored gene series, I have not found any research on it. My boy Bob started dark gold. Then the hair started coming in light silver. Right behind that came a band of copper penny color. His coat just changes color as it grows- all the colored hair at once in bands. He is registered as gold and white, and as an adult, his gold is more tan, and he has a lot of silver (he also has the fading gene). The hair behind his ears is still gold, and that is a good place to check for the 'true' color.

Brindle: Many people confuse banding and brindle. They are quite different. Banding is along the hair shaft- all change color at once. Brindle is on the skin, the colored areas are in patches of different colored hair. This can be hard to see in a grown-out coat, as the hairs mix together, but easy to see in a cut-down, whereas with banding, just the opposite is true. In a cut-down, you are unlikely to see banding in action, but on a long coat, you will see the stripes of different color that have grown out.

Blue and liver are about skin pigment, and not hair color, but they are on different genes. The dog is basically black or liver (the B series), and blue (the D series) modifies either one when present. Bob, Aireona, and Mun Kee are blues (also referred to as Maltese dilute- it dilutes the base color to a blue gray) over black (vs. liver). Bob produced a blue over black (Mun Kee) in his first litter. His SKIN is blue, his coat Gold and White. In Blues, you have to look really close- they can produce VERY dark gunmetal- to the point that it looks black until you get them up against a true black or out in the sun. They don't explain that on the registration. When you see a lavender cast to the lips, it's a trigger to look very closely at the color of the nose and eye rims. There is a lot more about blues and recognizing them on the Blue Shih Tzu page.

Black Tipping is when all of the colored hairs (not the white) have black tips. This is very dramatic and attractive. Dark tips on the ears are not black tipping, as the color goes to the root of the hair. Eye stripes, also are not black tipping- the color goes to the roots. The dog will always have eye stripes and dark ear tips, even after cutting. Black tipping is on body hair, and once you cut it, it is gone. One of the most stunning dogs I have seen was one JoAnn bred. It was a black mask gold with black tipping. As it grew, the coat was all gold, but at the ground was this lovely black fringe. It was so attractive!

Dominance:

Solid is dominant- so two Partis cannot produce a solid. Two solids can, however, produce partis, as they may well each carry a recessive parti gene, and can carry that gene for many generations.

Fading is dominant, so a fading dog with Gg can produce non-fading offspring unless the fading gene is double GG, in which case it will produce only dogs that fade.

Black points are dominant to liver points, so two black pigmented dogs can produce black or liver points, depending on what they carry- BB will look black pointed and produce only black points, Bb will look black pointed, but can produce liver if bred to a liver bb or another dog that carries liver.

Blue dd is recessive, and pops out every now and then. This happens when your non-dilute dog carries the blue gene Dd. Non-dilute dogs that do not carry the dilute gene DD will never produce it.

When you have something pop up in a litter that neither of the parents show, you know that the trait is carried on a recessive gene and that both parents carry the recessive gene. In the reverse, when you have a dog with an unusual trait that none of it's offspring carry, that is a recessive trait, and since the dog that shows the trait must carry two genes for the trait to show up, 100% of the offspring carry the gene from the dog that has the trait. Line breeding will likely pop the trait out, good or bad. It is much easier to breed out a dominant trait than a recessive one, as the recessive trait can be carried for generations before it crops up.

Environmental Factors on color- just to confuse things a bit more! A friend of mine had a clear red and white girl grow a band of DARK silver gray- it then went back to red. It was so odd! The normal pattern is for the hair to band in colors like Bob did, and keep doing it, or for the body color to fade to gray mixed to some degree with the base color. Her red is clear- she doesn't seem to have the gene that grays out colors, and she doesn't continue to get color bands. Many people think that environmental factors can trigger color changes. These factors include climate, stress, and diet. Environmental changes seem to crop out once, then revert to normal.

So, you see color in Shih Tzu is not an exact science- you just come as close as you can. It is best to use the birth color, as that is the underlying color, even if it grays out.

Pien Ji Shih Tzu Show News Information
 LenaLee
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7/14/2008 12:12:33 PM reply with quote send message to LenaLee Object to Post

Normal Pigment, Livers & Blues in Shih Tzu

There is a lot of confusion regarding dogs of normal pigment, livers, and blues. For the purpose of this discussion, we are going to concentrate on two gene series- B and D. We are discussing skin pigment, not coat color. The genes in this discussion have minimal impact on coat color, though there definitely is some.
B Series

In Shih Tzu, the points (eye rims, nose, lips) are always first controlled by the B series gene. The B series has two color possibilities- Black (B) or no black (b- liver). BB (the homozygous state for black, homozygous meaning two of the same gene) is black points and can only produce black pointed offspring because B is dominant, and all offspring will carry a B (the other side of the gene pair will carry a gene from the other parent). Bb (the heterozygous state) will be black pointed, but can produce either black or liver pointed offspring. bb (again homozygous, but this time for liver) is always liver pointed. The offspring can be liver or black, but ALL will carry b (liver) and be able to produce it.

The skin of the bb, or liver, dog cannot support black pigment. This dog will have a liver nose, varying in intensity from red-tan to chocolate, and there will be no black on either the skin or coat.

D Series

The Maltese Dilute (D series) gene modifies the base color- black or liver- with a grayish blue like you see in Maltese and Russian Blue cats. The dominant side of the gene (D) is actually non-blue-dilute, and does not affect pigment. DD will not have blue-dilute pigment, nor will any of the offspring be blue-dilute. Dd does not affect pigment, but a blue-dilute offspring may be produced. dd is blue-dilute pigmented, and will always pass a blue-dilute gene to offspring, so they will either be blue-dilute or carry it.

B/D Interaction

Here’s where it gets interesting! When you see a dog that is a clear, easily to identify blue, it is likely that the blue-dilute gene is active over liver- one gene pair being bb and another dd. When blue-dilute is active over black points (BB with dd or Bb with dd), it becomes much harder to distinguish. Many people confuse the transmission of blue with that of liver, and think that a blue dog cannot support black pigment, and this is true, to a point. Remember that when you have blue-dilute over black, the black will be diluted to blue. Over good, black pigment, dilution can produce a strong gunmetal color in the hair that is VERY difficult to distinguish from undiluted black, and for all intents and purposes appears black, though you notice it shines blue in the sun!

How Do I Recognize Blue when it is over Black?

This can be a very difficult task! Many a blue with excellent pigment for a blue is mistaken for a normal pigmented dog with poor pigment, and left out of the points for no reason! First, look at the pigment on the lips. In a blue over black, this will take on a lavender tint. When you see this, look CLOSELY at the nose. On a normally dark pigmented dog, the nose will look normal until you really look. There will be a blue-gray cast to the skin on the nose, sometimes so dark that it is difficult to see until you are out in sunlight! (If you are judging inside and in doubt, ask the owner- they should know! Remember blues are legal and no preference should be given for color!) The rims of the eyes will have the same lavender cast. Do not be fooled by eyelashes or eye stripes that look black- they may be a gunmetal color so dark you will not spot it except for the blue shine produced in direct sunlight.

Hopefully this will help clear up some confusion!
 Marchen Shih Tzus
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7/14/2008 11:29:55 PM reply with quote send message to Marchen Shih Tzus Object to Post

Also, when coming up with the genetic locus for this game, I was simply including all standard colors as recognized by the AKC. (www.akccolors.org/) White was not included because it is not a standard color. However, liver and white and blue and white were included because they are standard colors. I realize that there is a lot more to the genetics. However, we are supposed to come up with a simplified version of how to create colors for this game. I did not only use that particular website. I also created the locus for golden retriever and english springer spaniel, so I used my knowledge from the research for those breeds to help me with this breed. I did state that it was not exact and I had to make some modifications to make it more simplistic for the purposes of this game. We are not taking health issues into account when creating the genetics for color. While breeding two colors together may cause health issues, it does not mean that color does not exist. I am not trying to be argumentative, I am just trying to have us stay on task. We need to agree on a genetic model and percentages. One thing to remember about percentages is that they are just to allocate starter dogs. It will not be the percentage that affects our actual dogs. Those starter dogs will then pass the genetics through the generations until it gets to our current dogs. The dominant genes (in our case black/black and white/silver/silver and white) will probably end up being a majority of our dogs. We cannot control that. Our job will then be to breed the colors back in, using starter dogs. So while some people obviously will have preferences to certain colors, they will have to breed those colors back in. For example in labs, all current labs ended up being black because black is a dominant gene. Chocolate and yellow had to be bred back in. It may be better to just evenly distribute colors between starter dogs, if we cannot determine an actual percentage.

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Did you know?
The sit for exam is a modified version of the Stand for Exam. It is generally used in novice level classes and requires the handler to order the dog to sit and then to move away from the dog the length of the leash. The judge will then approach the dog and pet the dog's head.