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| noregrets2003 Basic User Posts : 500+  |
As a Toy breeder I am pleased to see your dedication to work on the color genes. When you submit please add that the Toy breeders would like the genes used for the Toy colors too. I believe that AKC has no variances for any of the three poodles sizes. |
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| Breckenridge Poodles Basic User Posts : 195 |
Ok I posted our finding to the Alpha forum so hopefully we will get color soon! I wonder how far back we will have to go to find some of our rarer colors... Standard and Toy Poodles please feel free to use our model for your breeds if you wish. Tammy Breckenridge Poodles |
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| Jakes Jacks Basic User Posts : 469 |
Thank you Tammy. |
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| Marchen Terriers Basic User Posts : 500+ |
Ok I don't mean to butt in but I noticed your post in the main colors post and I saw that you guys needed a little assistance. In order to actually get colors sometime soon for your breed, I thought I would help you out. I don't want anyone to think of this as a personal attack, you have a very good start. However, there are plenty possible combinations that were left out. You also were using a site that, while gives some good information, also makes up genes for things, which won't "mesh" with Jeff's programming code that is already set up. For example, that site decides that the silver gene should be called V. However, I think you will run into the problem that no one else has the "V" gene, and thus will cause you guys problems. Also some of the other genes that are real genes, were mixed up. You also have to add the carriers as well for everything to work out. You also have to include every gene in your combinations that applies to your breed. For example, the dd turns Browns to Cafes but the D gene would also have to be present in the other colors, which is why you need the DD gene. Anyway, rather than confuse you more, this is what I think: B Locus BB Black Bb Black, carrying brown bb brown C Locus CC Full pigmentation (Most affects reds/yellows) Ccch Carries chinchilla cchcch Chinchilla gene (Dilutes red/yellows) D Locus DD Full Pigmentation (Most affects blacks/browns) Dd Carries blue dd Blue dilution (Blacks turn to blue, Browns turn to Cafe) E Locus EE Full Pigmentation Ee Full, Carrying Blocker ee Blocks black and brown pigmentation G Locus GG Greying Gg Greys with maturity gg No greying, Blacks stay black Black (BB/Bb)(CC/Ccch/cchcch)(DD/Dd)(EE/Ee)(Gg/gg) BBCCDDEEGg BBCCDDEeGg BBCCDDEEgg BBCCDDEegg BBCCDdEEGg BBCCDdEeGg BBCCDdEEgg BBCCDdEegg BBCcchDDEEGg BBCcchDDEeGg BBCcchDDEEgg BBCcchDDEegg BBCcchDdEEGg BBCcchDdEeGg BBCcchDdEEgg BBCcchDdEegg *BBcchcchDDEEGg *BBcchcchDDEeGg *BBcchcchDDEEgg *BBcchcchDDEegg *BBcchcchDdEEGg *BBcchcchDdEeGg *BBcchcchDdEEgg *BBcchcchDdEegg BbCCDDEEGg BbCCDDEeGg BbCCDDEEgg BbCCDDEegg BbCCDdEEGg BbCCDdEeGg BbCCDdEEgg BbCCDdEegg BbCcchDDEEGg BbCcchDDEeGg BbCcchDDEEgg BbCcchDDEegg BbCcchDdEEGg BbCcchDdEeGg BbCcchDdEEgg BbCcchDdEegg *BbcchcchDDEEGg *BbcchcchDDEeGg *BbcchcchDDEEgg *BbcchcchDDEegg *BbcchcchDdEEGg *BbcchcchDdEeGg *BbcchcchDdEEgg *BbcchcchDdEegg Brown bb(CC/Ccch/cchcch)(DD/Dd)(EE/Ee)(Gg/gg) bbCCDDEEGg bbCCDDEEgg bbCCDDEeGg bbCCDDEegg bbCCDdEEGg bbCCDdEEgg bbCCDdEeGg bbCCDdEegg bbCCDdEEGg bbCCDdEEgg bbCCDdEeGg bbCCDdEegg bbCCDdEEGg bbCCDdEEgg bbCCDdEeGg bbCCDdEegg bbCcchDDEEGg bbCcchDDEEgg bbCcchDDEeGg bbCcchDDEegg bbCcchDdEEGg bbCcchDdEEgg bbCcchDdEeGg bbCcchDdEegg bbCcchDdEEGg bbCcchDdEEgg bbCcchDdEeGg bbCcchDdEegg bbCcchDdEEGg bbCcchDdEEgg bbCcchDdEeGg bbCcchDdEegg *bbcchcchDDEEGg *bbcchcchDDEEgg *bbcchcchDDEeGg *bbcchcchDDEegg *bbcchcchDdEEGg *bbcchcchDdEEgg *bbcchcchDdEeGg *bbcchcchDdEegg *bbcchcchDdEEGg *bbcchcchDdEEgg *bbcchcchDdEeGg *bbcchcchDdEegg *bbcchcchDdEEGg *bbcchcchDdEEgg *bbcchcchDdEeGg *bbcchcchDdEegg Apricot (BB/Bb/bb)(CC/Ccch)ddee(Gg/gg) BBCCddeeGg BBCCddeegg BBCcchddeeGg BBCcchddeegg BbCCddeeGg BbCCddeegg BbCcchddeeGg BbCcchddeegg bbCCddeeGg bbCCddeegg bbCcchddeeGg bbCcchddeegg Blue (BB/Bb)(CC/Ccch/cchcch)dd(EE/Ee)(Gg/gg) BBCCddEEgg BBCCddEEGg BBCCddEegg BBCCddEeGg BBCcchddEEgg BBCcchddEEGg BBCcchddEegg BBCcchddEeGg *BBcchcchddEEgg *BBcchcchddEEGg *BBcchcchddEegg *BBcchcchddEeGg BbCCddEEgg BbCCddEEGg BbCCddEegg BbCCddEeGg BbCcchddEEgg BbCcchddEEGg BbCcchddEegg BbCcchddEeGg *BbcchcchddEEgg *BbcchcchddEEGg *BbcchcchddEegg *BbcchcchddEeGg Silver-Beige bb(CC/Ccch/cchcch)(DD/Dd/dd)(EE/Ee/ee)GG bbCCDDEEGG bbCCDDEeGG *bbCCDDeeGG bbCCDdEEGG bbCCDdEeGG *bbCCDdeeGG bbCCddEEGG bbCCddEeGG *bbCCddeeGG bbCcchDDEEGG bbCcchDDEeGG *bbCcchDDeeGG bbCcchDdEEGG bbCcchDdEeGG *bbCcchDdeeGG bbCcchddEEGG bbCcchddEeGG *bbCcchddeeGG bbcchcchDDEEGG bbcchcchDDEeGG *bbcchcchDDeeGG bbcchcchDdEEGG bbcchcchDdEeGG *bbcchcchDdeeGG bbcchcchddEEGG bbcchcchddEeGG Cream (BB/Bb)cchcch(DD/Dd/dd)ee(Gg/gg) BBcchcchddeeGg BBcchcchddeegg BbcchcchcchddeeGg Bbcchcchcchddeegg bbcchcchddeeGg bbcchcchddeegg *BBcchcchDdeeGg *BBcchcchDdeegg *BbcchcchcchDdeeGg *BbcchcchcchDdeegg *bbcchcchDdeeGg *bbcchcchDdeegg *BBcchcchDDeeGg *BBcchcchDDeegg *BbcchcchcchDDeeGg *BbcchcchcchDDeegg *bbcchcchDDeeGg *bbcchcchDDeegg Silver (BB/Bb)(CC/Ccch)(DD/Dd/dd)(EE/Ee/ee)GG BBCCDDEEGG BBCCDDEeGG *BBCCDDeeGG BBCCDdEEGG BBCCDdEeGG *BBCCDdeeGG BBCCddEEGG BBCCddEeGG *BBCCddeeGG BBCcchDDEEGG BBCcchDDEeGG *BBCcchDDeeGG BBCcchDdEEGG BBCcchDdEeGG *BBCcchDdeeGG BBCcchddEEGG BBCcchddEeGG *BBCcchddeeGG BBcchcchDDEEGG BBcchcchDDEeGG *BBcchcchDDeeGG BBcchcchDdEEGG BBcchcchDdEeGG *BBcchcchDdeeGG BBcchcchddEEGG BBcchcchddEeGG BbCCDDEEGG BbCCDDEeGG *BbCCDDeeGG BbCCDdEEGG BbCCDdEeGG *BbCCDdeeGG BbCCddEEGG BbCCddEeGG *BbCCddeeGG BbCcchDDEEGG BbCcchDDEeGG *BbCcchDDeeGG BbCcchDdEEGG BbCcchDdEeGG *BbCcchDdeeGG BbCcchddEEGG BbCcchddEeGG *BbCcchddeeGG BbcchcchDDEEGG BbcchcchDDEeGG *BbcchcchDDeeGG BbcchcchDdEEGG BbcchcchDdEeGG *BbcchcchDdeeGG BbcchcchddEEGG BbcchcchddEeGG White (BB/Bb/bb)cchcchddeeGG BBcchcchddeeGG BbcchcchcchddeeGG bbcchcchddeeGG Red (BB/Bb/bb)(CC/Ccch)(DD/Dd)ee(Gg/gg) BBCCDDeeGg BBCCDDeegg BBCCDdeeGg BBCCDdeegg BBCcchDDeeGg BBCcchDDeegg BBCcchDdeeGg BBCcchDdeegg BbCCDDeeGg BbCCDDeegg BbCCDdeeGg BbCCDdeegg BbCcchDDeeGg BbCcchDDeegg BbCcchDdeeGg BbCcchDdeegg bbCCDDeeGg bbCCDDeegg bbCCDdeeGg bbCCDdeegg bbCcchDDeeGg bbCcchDDeegg bbCcchDdeeGg bbCcchDdeegg Cafe Au Lait bb(CC/Ccch/cchcch)dd(EE/Ee)(Gg/gg) bbCCddEEgg bbCCddEEGg bbCCddEegg bbCCddEeGg bbCcchddEEgg bbCcchddEEGg bbCcchddEegg bbCcchddEeGg *bbcchcchddEEGg *bbcchcchddEeGg *bbcchcchddEEgg *bbcchcchddEegg * are updated versions |
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| Marchen Terriers Basic User Posts : 500+ |
Unfortunately, TECHNICALLY you may end up with some faults, it is up to you whether you just include them with the regular color and ignore the liver eyes/nose etc. or have it show up as ex. "Red with liver skin tone" You cannot just delete them because deleting combinations will cause your genetic code to not work. DQs won't affect the game right now, so you may just want to ignore it and if it is a red with liver skin, simply call it a red. To explain what I mean: Poodles are only supposed to have liver skin tone (showing on nose, lips, etc.) if they are a Chocolate or a Cafe. However, due to the genetics, if you are breeding with a Chocolate or Cafe, other colors could result, but the chocolate skin tone may remain. Examples: Apricot with liver skin, Red with liver skin In real-life you will occasionally end up with faults. It is up to the breeders whether or not you want to "address" those faults or ignore them. Let me know if you want them designated and I will, otherwise leave them as is and not worry that they may actually have liver skin tone when they aren't supposed to. You won't know any different haha as it is hidden in the genetic tone and you won't be able to "see" the actual dog you produced. |
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| Dzur Mountain Basic User Posts : 31 |
And see, this is why my degree is in Economics and not biology. If you wanted a calculation on how much the dollar will be worth in 10 years accounting for market trends and current world situations, I could give that to you. When it comes to genetics, I can only tell you what colour the darn sweet peas should be  No need to apologize, I don't think anyone here would take it as an attack, and I myself am deeply, deeply grateful for the help you have given us. Just looking at what you produced makes my eyes bleed. I don't think we need to address skin tone, as that would make things needlessly complicated. Once again, thank you for the help. |
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| Marchen Terriers Basic User Posts : 500+ |
Ok good Then leave things as they are above and you should be good to go once percentages are agreed upon. |
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| admin Administrator Forum Moderator Posts : 5,000+   |
Is the model posted by Marchen Terriers acceptable? The one on the front page has too much ambiguity for me to use at this point. |
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| noregrets2003 Basic User Posts : 500+ |
Please use Marchen's model for the Toy Poodles. Thanks, Mary |
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| Breckenridge Poodles Basic User Posts : 195 |
Holy Wow! Thanks a ton Marchen... Again I think I slept through that part of science class 20 years ago. Admin please us Marchen's post and we can go with the percentages we decided on earlier. Thanks everyone Tammy |
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| Boksu Basic User Posts : 500+ |
I agree with the others: the model looks good. Boksu of Shaman standard poodles Indigos miniature poodles |
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| Arial Eve Basic User Posts : 500+ |
This model is posted in the Standard Poodle forum as well. There have been no issues raised with using this model -- really glad that Marchen came to our rescue and that all 3 varieties of poodles will soon have colour!! Kathy Lyla Arial Eve Kyra |
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| PoodleWorld Basic User Posts : 9 |
I only just saw this but wanted to comment on cafe au late as it is a pretty rare color, I dont think I have ever seen one in the show ring in the 30 years I have been in poodles not to say there arent any. But it would be once in a blue moon if there is. and Blues are alot more common then black most black poodles you see in the show ring are actually blues died black. having a true black is pretty rare. Silver and grey are the same in poodles we dont have two different colors for this . Most people refer to them as silver in poodles Really mostly pet people will use the term grey. Aside from that I dont know all the technical mumbo jumbo you need for the color coding lol |
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| Dzur Mountain Basic User Posts : 31 |
Cafe a Lait is 1%, I am not sure you can go lower than that. We did decide to roll grey in to silver and call it silver for aesthetic reasons. As for the blue/black thing. Looking at the genotypes, there are 32 different combinations that can produce a black dog and only 16 that can produce a blue. Also, the Dd turns brown and black to another colour and dd is what produces blue. If I am looking at this correctly statistically, then black would be more common than blue, because blue appears to be the recessive trait. (although it appears that in the dog world they talk more of dilution than recessive or mutation) Now, we all know how statistics work in RL, my brown eyed brother and his brown eyed wife have three blue eyed children, thanks to the conribution of that little recessive gene from both sides of the family. Keeping that in mind, I am still good with the percentages. It will be interesting to see what the program actually spits out. (Edited: White might be too high, but I just took a pain pill and my judgement might be impaired.) |
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| Marchen Terriers Basic User Posts : 500+ |
If blue are more common than blacks in real life, it is simply due to people's preference and breeding of that color. If people prefer blues, they will breed more blues. Thus, blues will become more prevalent. However, the percentages will only affect starter dogs. What you end up in your current dog will be greatly unknown, because you don't know if a majority of the current stock all comes from a few Blues for example, so a majority could be all one color. You will have to breed back in the lost colors. For example in Goldens, we have three colors: Dark Golden, Golden (Medium Golden), and Light Golden. We split them up 33% Dark, 34% Golden, 33% Light. Due to the genes and a few popular studs, we ended up with all darks in our kennels. So now starts the process of bringing back the other two colors. So don't dwell on the percentages when in reality, they are only a small factor. The genes will do their job and pass down until they get to your current stock. It will greatly depend upon how diverse the breed has been with their breedings. Kennels breeding to a few popular studs for example, could greatly skew the colors one way or another. |
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| Kulpi Basic User Posts : 96 |
thanks for the assistance lol can see why i failed genetics at school to complicated :P. i only now the basics . Kelly Kulpi standards / Worpoli minis |
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| PoodleWorld Basic User Posts : 9 |
Thanks Marchen actually what you have done is great. People arent breeding for blues it just happens. or rather they may just be a faded black because it is rare to see a natural inky black poodle. didnt realize so many color genes for black. good education |
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| admin Administrator Forum Moderator Posts : 5,000+ |
I found quite a few missing combinations... bbCCDdeeGG bbCCdDeeGG bbCCddeeGG BBCcchDDeeGG BBCcchDdeeGG BBCcchdDeeGG BBCcchddeeGG BbCcchDDeeGG BbCcchDdeeGG BbCcchdDeeGG BbCcchddeeGG bBCcchDDeeGG bBCcchDdeeGG bbcchCDdeeGG bbcchCdDeeGG bbcchCddeeGG BBcchcchDDEEGg BBcchcchDDEEgG BBcchcchDDEEgg BBcchcchDDEeGg BBcchcchDDEegG BBcchcchDDEegg BBcchcchDDeEGg BBcchcchDDeEgG BBcchcchDDeEgg BBcchcchDDeeGG BBcchcchDDeeGg BBcchcchDDeegG BBcchcchDDeegg BBcchcchDdEEGg BBcchcchDdEEgG BBcchcchDdEEgg BBcchcchDdEeGg BBcchcchDdEegG BBcchcchDdEegg BBcchcchDdeEGg BBcchcchDdeEgG BBcchcchDdeEgg bBCcchdDeeGG bBCcchddeeGG bbCcchDDeeGG bbCcchDdeeGG BBcchcchDdeeGG BBcchcchDdeeGg BBcchcchDdeegG BBcchcchDdeegg BBcchcchdDEEGg BBcchcchdDEEgG BBcchcchdDEEgg BBcchcchdDEeGg BBcchcchdDEegG BBcchcchdDEegg BBcchcchdDeEGg BBcchcchdDeEgG BBcchcchdDeEgg BBcchcchdDeeGG BBcchcchdDeeGg BBcchcchdDeegG BBcchcchdDeegg BBcchcchddEEGg BBcchcchddEEgG BBcchcchddEEgg BBcchcchddEeGg BBcchcchddEegG BBcchcchddEegg BBcchcchddeEGg BBcchcchddeEgG BBcchcchddeEgg BbcchcchDDEEGg BbcchcchDDEEgG BbcchcchDDEEgg BbcchcchDDEeGg BbcchcchDDEegG BbcchcchDDEegg BbcchcchDDeEGg BbcchcchDDeEgG BbcchcchDDeEgg BbcchcchDDeeGG BbcchcchDDeeGg BbcchcchDDeegG BbcchcchDDeegg BbcchcchDdEEGg BbcchcchDdEEgG BbcchcchDdEEgg BbcchcchDdEeGg BbcchcchDdEegG BbcchcchDdEegg BbcchcchDdeEGg BbcchcchDdeEgG BbcchcchDdeEgg BbcchcchDdeeGG BbcchcchDdeeGg BbcchcchDdeegG BbcchcchDdeegg BbcchcchdDEEGg BbcchcchdDEEgG BbcchcchdDEEgg BbcchcchdDEeGg bbCcchdDeeGG bbCcchddeeGG BBcchCDDeeGG BBcchCDdeeGG BBcchCdDeeGG BbcchcchdDEegG BbcchcchdDEegg BbcchcchdDeEGg BbcchcchdDeEgG BbcchcchdDeEgg BbcchcchdDeeGG BbcchcchdDeeGg BbcchcchdDeegG BbcchcchdDeegg BbcchcchddEEGg BbcchcchddEEgG BbcchcchddEEgg BbcchcchddEeGg BbcchcchddEegG BbcchcchddEegg BbcchcchddeEGg BbcchcchddeEgG BbcchcchddeEgg bBcchcchDDEEGg bBcchcchDDEEgG bBcchcchDDEEgg bBcchcchDDEeGg bBcchcchDDEegG bBcchcchDDEegg bBcchcchDDeEGg bBcchcchDDeEgG bBcchcchDDeEgg bBcchcchDDeeGG bBcchcchDDeeGg bBcchcchDDeegG bBcchcchDDeegg bBcchcchDdEEGg bBcchcchDdEEgG bBcchcchDdEEgg bBcchcchDdEeGg bBcchcchDdEegG bBcchcchDdEegg bBcchcchDdeEGg bBcchcchDdeEgG bBcchcchDdeEgg bBcchcchDdeeGG bBcchcchDdeeGg bBcchcchDdeegG bBcchcchDdeegg bBcchcchdDEEGg bBcchcchdDEEgG bBcchcchdDEEgg bBcchcchdDEeGg bBcchcchdDEegG bBcchcchdDEegg bBcchcchdDeEGg bBcchcchdDeEgG bBcchcchdDeEgg bBcchcchdDeeGG bBcchcchdDeeGg bBcchcchdDeegG bBcchcchdDeegg BBcchCddeeGG BbcchCDDeeGG BbcchCDdeeGG BbcchCdDeeGG BbcchCddeeGG bBcchcchddEEGg bBcchcchddEEgG bBcchcchddEEgg bBcchcchddEeGg bBcchcchddEegG bBcchcchddEegg bBcchcchddeEGg bBcchcchddeEgG bBcchcchddeEgg bbcchcchDDEEGg bbcchcchDDEEgG bbcchcchDDEEgg bbcchcchDDEeGg bbcchcchDDEegG bbcchcchDDEegg bbcchcchDDeEGg bbcchcchDDeEgG bbcchcchDDeEgg bbcchcchDDeeGG bbcchcchDDeeGg bbcchcchDDeegG bbcchcchDDeegg bbcchcchDdEEGg bbcchcchDdEEgG bbcchcchDdEEgg bbcchcchDdEeGg bbcchcchDdEegG bbcchcchDdEegg bbcchcchDdeEGg bbcchcchDdeEgG bbcchcchDdeEgg bbcchcchDdeeGG bbcchcchDdeeGg bbcchcchDdeegG bbcchcchDdeegg bbcchcchdDEEGg bbcchcchdDEEgG bbcchcchdDEEgg bbcchcchdDEeGg bbcchcchdDEegG bbcchcchdDEegg bbcchcchdDeEGg bbcchcchdDeEgG bbcchcchdDeEgg bbcchcchdDeeGG bbcchcchdDeeGg bbcchcchdDeegG bbcchcchdDeegg bbcchcchddEEGg bbcchcchddEEgG bbcchcchddEEgg bbcchcchddEeGg bbcchcchddEegG bbcchcchddEegg bbcchcchddeEGg bBcchCDDeeGG bBcchCDdeeGG bBcchCdDeeGG bBcchCddeeGG bbcchCDDeeGG bbcchcchddeEgG bbcchcchddeEgg BBCCDDeeGG BBCCDdeeGG BBCCdDeeGG BBCCddeeGG BbCCDDeeGG BbCCDdeeGG BbCCdDeeGG BbCCddeeGG bBCCDDeeGG bBCCDdeeGG bBCCdDeeGG bBCCddeeGG bbCCDDeeGG Some of them are duplicated but I can't seem to figure out what those are supposed to be. |
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| Marchen Terriers Basic User Posts : 500+ |
I'm on it. |
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| Marchen Terriers Basic User Posts : 500+ |
I am working on updating them now, but you have a lot of incorrect genes (well at least I think) you have a lot that have the recessive listed before the dominant, for example: dD Is that how your program is set up? I was under the impression a recessive could only be either with another recessive or after the dominant. |
7/24/2008 8:37:16 AM
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