.com Forum · Real Show Dogs

Just the other day I saw a dog with a choke chain on and was still pulling on the leash. Isn't the choke chain supposed to stop the dog from pulling?

To be honest im not a great supporter of choke chains but i would like to ask. And does't a collar choke a dog to?

Thanks,


Kate

The chain is a training tool that is supposed to be used to give a dog momentary corrections. It is not designed to prevent constant pulling - and if used incorrectly *will* choke a dog.

No tool teaches a dog proper behavior. If a dog constantly pulls at a leash it will do damage to itself, no matter what tool is being used to "walk" it. The most important training tool is at the other end of the leash. If the owner is unfamiliar with a training tool, is incompetent with its use, or simply does not care about the training being done, then the dog will never make any improvement. Those owners usually resort to head halters to give them the semblance of control, since "the stupid collar didn't work."

The dog was pulling into the collar because it was being reinforced to do so--by pulling, it was being rewarded with forward movement. If the owner would stand still until the leash went slack or would change direction from where the dog wanted to go until the dog "checked in" with him or her and agreed to go in the owner's desired direction, then it's likely it would learn relatively quickly not to pull.

There is nothing wrong with a slip collar, with a prong collar, or with an electronic collar in the hands of a competent trainer. They are just inanimate objects and cannot harm an animal through their own devices. Every dog, however, needs a tool appropriate to them with which to train. I train my Toy Fox Terrier, Beau, obedience on a chain slip collar, my mixed breed, Jack, on a limited slip collar, and my collie, Glitter, on a flat buckle collar. I had one little TFT that really needed a toy-sized prong collar if I had pursued obedience training (he lived out his life as a couch potato and biscuit-eater, though. )

Different tools for different dogs--and all of them happy to do what they do.

Sorry to be so long-winded, but access to training tools is an important topic in my opinion. When people start talking about how "cruel" a particular device is over another, it just leads to bans and to limited choices. That's not good for the dogs or for the people training them.

Many people think that choke chains/prong collars will make the dog give themselves a correction when they pull thus teaching the dog not to pull without any work by the handler.

While this might happen in a few cases often it doesn't, dogs will gradually increase pressure on the collar and will just 'get used to it' and continue to pull albeit with even more pressure around their neck than before increasing the chance of injury. This is the incorrect use of these tools.

What a choke chain/prong collar is actually for is to increase the strength of the handler's correction, they are typically used only on tough necked/pain tolerant dogs for whom a tug on a normal collar can be easily ignored. Corrections are given before the dog reaches the end of the leash to remind them to check in with you rather than go after what ever they want. This is the correct use of these tools.

grif,

I wouldn't feel that my big Labrador male was safe if I didn't handle him on a choke. It's rarely tight. If I'm in a situation where I need absolute and unquestioned control regardless of circumstance, I use a heavy slip-style show lead. (It's pink.) It goes right behind his ears, he can still breathe easily, and he knows that if he's stupid he will get in trouble.

A choke just reminds him that he's not to decide where or how fast our walk will be going.

I've never done damage to a dog with a choke. I prefer a finer choke than you can get at your average pet shop, because it gets the point across better and the better you get your point across, the less you have to use the tool.

I also like a choke because it's harder for a dog to get out of. I've yet to find a buckle collar that my dog can't get out of if he really wants to.

All that said, my big Labrador boy is very responsive. It's a different question when we're talking about the little black twit (also a Labrador, but a girl) who will do her own thing if given half a chance. Luckily for me, she learned as a baby that Mom's bigger, tougher, stronger, and more stubborn than she is!

One of my friends uses a choke chain on her Dalmatian dog, she adopted her dog recently. She was using a choke collar that looked like this:

She was gently jerking the leash as he pulled and he still pulls like nothing had happened. The chain is low down on his neck. Could the chain possibly be too big? or is there something wrong with her method?

Thanks,


~Kate

(Edit: Picture problem)

In my Labrador's last months, I walked him on the kid of choke chain above^^ He pulled me into the street a few times when he was on a regular collar(cuz I was little still), and my parents refused to let me walk him without the choke collar. He seemed to get the idea pretty well, I had to do nothing for him to understand(he was a great dog haha).

I, personally, don't like choke collars UNLESS they are being used properly. If someone is in danger if the dog isn't wearing a choke collar(and the dog doesn't pull on the choke collar), then choke collar is okay. If the dog is still pulling, whats the point?

~IJMB

^^ I just thought it was strange how the Dalmatian was choking his self every time he pulled and didn't learn from the lesson. :P

Can you walk a dog with a collar and a choke chain on but with the leash only attached to the chain?

~Kate

Yes, you can walk a dog with both a "flat" collar and a "choke" collar on and only connect the leash to the "choke".

The way I have always learned and taught was proper is that after you put the "choke" on the dog and have pulled decently taunt around the dog's neck, you should have 2" extra chain where the leash is connected. This would be the correct length of chain for your dog. You should then make sure that your collar is a P not a 9 when on the dog (*tilt both the P and the 9 to the right to see how they'd sit on the dog*) as this allows for the chain to loosen when the pressure is released from the leash afer the correction. You should have the chain high under the dogs chin and behind the dogs ears, not low on the dogs neck and you should have a quick, snappy, "jerk & release" type correcion rather than a pull. The pressure you apply to your "jerk & release" will depend on the minimum amount of pressure that your dog will actually respond to.

Also, I have heard that it was not the "pop" that was originally supposed to be the correction but actually the noise that the "choke" collar makes when "popped".

All this said, I am a much bigger fan of the pinch/prong over the "choke", but more or less the same rules apply to the prong concerning placement and correction tactics.



Hope this helps,
TCrown

Thanks TCrown, the chain keeps on slipping down from the dog's neck, how long should the leash be for the chain? She uses a 1 metre long leash, is that fine?

Thanks for putting up with my questions

Loup, Grif, great posts! Now if ppl would only read them. These are all training AIDS not for replacing TRAINING but to AID in the TRAINING hopefully making it easier and quicker. Used incorrectly they can cause injury to the dog.

It's all for the breed, Weims.

Some dogs don't care if they get strangled too, they like to pull more than the strangling costs them. Esp with as above said the tools aren't used properly.

I use chokes on mine as I've had leather collars fail (once coming right up to a busy intersection), and manymany times have had leashes unclip from D rings while the dogs rolled in the grass.

My friend's dog does the same, pulling on the leash and almost seeming to enjoy the choking! She is currently out of state for school and occasionally when the family is gone, I'll walk the dogs for her, and when I use the choke correctly, the dog does miraculous things

Basically, when the dog is beginning to go ahead of you, the chain should be loose and you give it a quick jerk to make a sudden choke and release on the dog. I use choke chains on dogs that don't have as much as an issue, but when the dog is really a puller (like this Husky mix I am referring to), I prefer a Prong color/Triple Crown. Same way of using it, but I think it is more affective. You just always have to be careful how you use these types of training tools, because they can hurt the dog.

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posted by WeimsRus
Loup, Grif, great posts! Now if ppl would only read them. These are all training AIDS not for replacing TRAINING but to AID in the TRAINING hopefully making it easier and quicker. Used incorrectly they can cause injury to the dog.

It's all for the breed, Weims.

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Sorry Weims, I guess I should have made it clearer then I did if it sounds like I'm saying any of the collars will fix an issue by themselves. By saying a correction, I figured this made it obvious enough that a person training was needed as a collar can not correct on it's own, but hey maybe that's just me since I've been training for too many years I forget to simplify it enough for the average person.

I agree that any sort of training collar is worthless without a knowledgable person on the other end of the leash. However everyone needs to be taught in one way or another about this knowledge before they can expect to know what they're doing and have effective training. I posted the correct way to use a chain to help teach people what they should be doing, not that the chain will correct the behaviour on it's own. However, even if someone is using the correct correction method with their collar, whether or not a collar is fitted or placed correctly will heavily influence how much it can AID in the human correcting the behavior. Let me know if that's not clear enough...

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The length of leash should not matter, simply how tight your leash is. If you already have a tight leash, then you will simply be tugging on the collar even if you release quickly. Instead you should keep a nice loose leash, so that when you "jerk" to release you actually have a snappy correction rather than just a tug. The leash should have a good loop of slack between you and the dog, but should not get tangled in your or the dog's feet so don't let it be so loose that it touches the ground. Remember though, that over text online terms such as "jerk", "pop" and "correct" can come across fairly harsh even when it is not intended. ONLY give the minimum amount of pressure/correction as your dog will respond to, then be consistent in that EVERY time your dog behaves incorrectly for what you are wanting you correct. Also ALWAYS remember to reward when the dog is behaving correctly, at least in the beginning of this training.

No problem with the questions. I don't mind so long as I'm helping you out in learning something valuable to you and your dog or people you know.



TCrown

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posted by wahottsdogs
Basically, when the dog is beginning to go ahead of you, the chain should be loose and you give it a quick jerk to make a sudden choke and release on the dog. .... You just always have to be careful how you use these types of training tools, because they can hurt the dog.

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Agreed


TCrown

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posted by Wildsyde
Some dogs don't care if they get strangled too, they like to pull more than the strangling costs them. Esp with as above said the tools aren't used properly.

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That's exactly what my Pembi does.

But I quickly learned to keep the collar right behind her ears, instead of down on her neck. She responds much better when I tug on the leash, because it forces her to keep her head up. A lot of people improperly use choke collars, and that's why they "don't work".

~Sarah~

Thanks you for your responses, i think the chain works better right behind the ears but the chains bound to slip down because the leash is long and when the dog pulls the chain slips right down their neck :/

Most of you are young people on this list. When you were a child, and you did something wrong...did your parents hit you for it? If they did, did you stop doing it....or, maybe just do the wrong thing when you were happy or excited or forgot that you weren't allowed to do it?
Choke chains are a "punishment" type of correction. Sure, "corrections" such as choke chains do fix a problem, but it erodes the relationship with your dog. Many, many studies have been done that prove that dogs and most animals (people too) do MUCH better by ignoring the bad, and praising the good....it's that simple.
What if you don't have time to stand still until your dog quits pulling, you say? Well, there are other much kinder leashes and halters than a painful chain.

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posted by Featherrun
Most of you are young people on this list. When you were a child, and you did something wrong...did your parents hit you for it? If they did, did you stop doing it....or, maybe just do the wrong thing when you were happy or excited or forgot that you weren't allowed to do it?
Choke chains are a "punishment" type of correction. Sure, "corrections" such as choke chains do fix a problem, but it erodes the relationship with your dog. Many, many studies have been done that prove that dogs and most animals (people too) do MUCH better by ignoring the bad, and praising the good....it's that simple.
What if you don't have time to stand still until your dog quits pulling, you say? Well, there are other much kinder leashes and halters than a painful chain.

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Well, there are differing opinions on what sort of reinforcers to use, as it sounds like you prefer positive only and I prefer positive & negative and I'm sure others on SD have even more alternatives. IMO, if you only offer a cookie every time your dog does something correctly, but do nothing any time the dog does something incorrectly, then your dog will only behave so long as it wants the cookie more so then whatever else it is interested in at the time. Kind of like child raising, but I know there are also differing opinions on that as well.

ETA: To the OP: You should correct before your dog puts pressure on the leash, which would keep the chain from getting pulled down. Once you see your dog start to get ahead of you a little, correct or get there attention back verbally, this way your not waiting till the dog is pulling on the leash. Yes, you will still have to readjust the collar after the dog shakes off, or lays down, or such but that's just a minor adjustment compared to the dog taking you for a walk I like to see the dog's shoulder or neck/flat collar in line with my leg, any further and they're "leading".

TCrown

to the OP, first thing you need to know it how to walk a dog correctly.

When walking a dog (before it learns to behave itself) the dog should be on you left side and its shoulders should be in line with your legs or behind you.

The length of leash does not matter because you hold it so that when the dog is in the position detailed above the leash is slack not tight.

You give corrections or treats with your left hand and hold most of the excess leash in your right hand.

Choke collar should be a P when looking head on at the dog, this allows it to slide easily closed and open when the dog is on your left.

A correction is a quick tug back on the leash followed immediately by relaxing the leash (if the leash is taught you must move your hand forward first to slacken the leash then jerk back quickly). The result on the dog is a quick jerk/jolt to get their attention away from anything else and back on you. The tug should be sufficiently hard to achieve this result and but not any harder. And the whole correction process should last less than a second. Note: Correction = make correct, the goal is not to punish or hurt the dog but let them know that they are doing something wrong and show them what they should be doing.

A correction should be given well before the dog is pulling on the leash, instead it should be given as soon as the dog starts moving ahead of you and out of the correct position.

My preferred method is to reward the dog occasionally while in the correct position and once the dog returns to the correct position with their attention on you after a correction. The reward can be praise, treats, petting whatever your dog likes.

grif,

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posted by Featherrun
Most of you are young people on this list. When you were a child, and you did something wrong...did your parents hit you for it? If they did, did you stop doing it

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Yes and yes, I was spanked twice and that was all that was needed for me to learn that No means No and then only a No was needed from then on.

I'm a firm believer than you need to beable to tell a dog not to do something because there are lots of things in the world that my dog would consider better than anything I can offer (eg. chasing a squirrel, meeting a new person). And if I'm going to trust my dog off-leash where I cannot physically stop them from doing so I need to beable to tell them No and them to know that No means No.

The same should be true of choke chain corrections, you should not be giving them over and over and over a few times should be enough for the dog to get the message, I should have mentioned above that you should tell the dog "no" or "ahah" or some disciplinary word when you give a correction so that you can transition to just the word when in situations when the collar is not desired/possible.

grif,