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The program last night called Pedigree Dogs Exposed was very useful and I am sure many of you watched it. It shows how bad the inbreeding of dogs today has severely affected. Expeccially with the dogs like the Pug, Peke and Bulldog, are finding it very hard to breathe. Also with the Cavalier King Charles Spaniel, the genetic condition causing the dog severe pain to the point it was constantly screaming, is down to inbreeding. That dog had to be put to sleep because or ignorant people breeding dogs so close. The vet on the program said that its like putting a size 10 foot into a size 6 shoe, and that you would have to beat a dog with a stick very hard to cause that amount of pain and you would be prosecuted, but people who breed the dogs with the condition are not.

With the Rhodesian Ridgebacks, in the Kennel Club Breed Standard it clearly states that if a dog is born without a ridge, it is to be culled. I strongly disagree. If the dog is born with a ridge, it means that the dog has spina bifida. The woman on the prgram said that it would be better for the dogs to stay with these people rather than them to go to people who will fight them. Neither of the options are best for the dogs, but the dogs shouldnt be used at stud/bred from to close relatives.

And with the basset hound, the man on the program siad that if he bred a dog that look liked the dog 100 years ago, he would never breed from it again. The dogs and in complete discomfort and if you look at one, you can see it is tensing the whole time to stop it's penis from scraping along the floor.

This program was a big eye opener, and the BBC have said they will put little or no coverage of Crufts on the T.V. because of the freakish-looking breeds.

I hope this opens people's eyes and not let the breeds get any worse.

Starlit Diamonds

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posted by Starlit Diamonds Kennels
Also with the Cavalier King Charles Spaniel, the genetic condition causing the dog severe pain to the point it was constantly screaming, is down to inbreeding. That dog had to be put to sleep because or ignorant people breeding dogs so close.

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This statement is incorrect. I believe you are referring to Syringomyelia and the condition does NOT result from inbreeding.

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posted by Classica
[This statement is incorrect. I believe you are referring to Syringomyelia and the condition does NOT result from inbreeding.

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You are correct, this condition is not caused by inbreeding, it is a result of recessive genes from each parent meeting up in the offspring. However inbreeding increases the likelihood of this happening.

I am a scientist who shows and occasionally breeds dogs.

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posted by Starlit Diamonds Kennels
With the Rhodesian Ridgebacks, in the Kennel Club Breed Standard it clearly states that if a dog is born without a ridge, it is to be culled. I strongly disagree. If the dog is born with a ridge, it means that the dog has spina bifida. The woman on the prgram said that it would be better for the dogs to stay with these people rather than them to go to people who will fight them. Neither of the options are best for the dogs, but the dogs shouldnt be used at stud/bred from to close relatives.

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Yes they should be culled IMO. They are RIDGEbacks. Culling only means to remove a dog from the breeding program. That means placing out, spaying, neutering or sadly killing. EVERY breeder culls in one form or another. Fortunately the latter is nearly unheard of now. If the dog is born with a ridge it does not have spina bifida.. there is a condition called a dermoid sinus that is similar but just because the dog has a ridge doesn't mean it has one that will cause issues. Most RRs never have an issue.
Who is fighting what? 99.999999999999% of puppies placed out will never be faught or exposed to it. If one was the keep all the dogs they bred, they'd have to be kenneled 24/7, never get proper attention, improperly fed due to funds, lack of health care also due to funds, etc. Sometimes inbreeding/linebreeding is a good idea. If you do your homework you have no issues.

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And with the basset hound, the man on the program siad that if he bred a dog that look liked the dog 100 years ago, he would never breed from it again. The dogs and in complete discomfort and if you look at one, you can see it is tensing the whole time to stop it's penis from scraping along the floor.

This program was a big eye opener, and the BBC have said they will put little or no coverage of Crufts on the T.V. because of the freakish-looking breeds.

I hope this opens people's eyes and not let the breeds get any worse.

Starlit Diamonds

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This program sounds like it was made by the UK version of PETA. They are using scare tactics and bullying and are sadly succeeding..

Bottom line I think this was a very one sided and incorrect documentary.

~Morgan

Also, I wanted to add I think it's a horrible shame that this has led to what it has. Now what little exposure the common public had to purebred dogs and properly bred purebred dogs has been downsized greatly. These shows made people wonder what the difference was between a well bred dog and a newspaper dog was. They also helped expose common health problems and the importance of health testing.
The common person that wants a Ridgie, Cavalier, Basset Hound, Pug or other breed mentioned will get one. Whether from someone who can and has severely diminished the risks of these health and temperament problems or from someone that threw two dogs together without checking health or assessing temperament.

~Morgan

For anyone that is interested, the show can be viewed here:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1LyjlX4Mp8

It's in 6 parts.

I'll reserve commenting until after viewing.

Autumn

First of all I want to say that that show is one of the most one-sided, biased programs I have ever seen. I mean really... they compared the Eugenics movement to dog breeding!!
Where are the RESPONSIBLE breeders that are trying to change things within the system? The only mention I heard about responsible breeders was about 5 seconds long, and featured some salukis running around.

That being said, yes things need to change, with the KC, AKC, and any organization of the likes.

Conformation is becoming too much of a focus point for many breeders, and this can be (and is) detrimental to the welfare of the breed. A dog should be ABLE to go out and do what it was originally bred to do. That doesn't mean it SHOULD, or even have to, but it should be physically able to do so, and if breeders are making this impossible, then IMO, they should take a step back, and take a look at what they are doing to their "beloved" breed.

And I may get flamed for this, but I do think that there should be a health testing system set up, so that dogs that are affected with a known genetic disorder are NOT allowed to compete in the conformation ring. Dog shows are supposed to be about evaluating future breeding stock, and IMO a dog that is known to be affected with a genetic disorder has no place in the ring.

Also, I think that they (KCs) should be all around more stringent about this issue. Breeders should be REQUIRED to test their dogs for common genetic disorders in the breed, and there should be serious consequences for any breeder that knowingly breeds an affected dog, or breeds carrier to carrier.

But all in all, that video was a poor way to make those points, and personally, it reeked of PETA agenda.

Autumn

I was going to reply with quotes but as there wasn't anything I didn't agree with in the end it seemed unnecessary. I too thought it was a thoroughly biased programme made by someone who clearly had their own agenda about pedigree dogs. They made out that the breeding of dogs was similar to the eugenic philosophy of people like Hitler, which was clearly done to provoke outrage in the general public. How do they think any animal breeding programme works ? Racehorses, farm animals etc. etc. did not just happen by accident !!

Many of the points they raised are indeed very valid, there are breeds with major health issues BUT there are also many hard working and dedicated breeders trying their very best to improve the situation. They portrayed all breeders as people who care little for the dogs they produce.

The Kennel Club could certainly do far more than they do at present to ensure that registered dogs are healthy and available health tests are carried out. They could refuse to register the offspring of untested or affected animals, as well as those who are closely inbred. Other countries manage it. We have Bernese in RL, in their parent country dogs have to be assessed before they are bred from and if they are not considered good enough or don't have the relevant health test results at an agreed level the pups cannot be registered. The KC here say they won't force breeders to health test in case it drives them away from registering their dogs, but I think even if they complained a bit about it, most people would test if they thought they had to.

The fact that a pup is KC registered is used as a selling point by many breeders, despite the fact it means very little. So long as it isn't a mixed breed dog, if the breeder is prepared to spend the time to fill in a form and cough up a cheque, any dogs can be KC registered, however poor they are in health or quality. If it was harder to achieve the registration then it would have some merit and would mean your dog was more likely to be healthy.

The programme certainly made for uncomfortable viewing. I wonder if some of those involved really knew what the angle was going to be when they agreed to be in it. We saw them filming at Manchester champ show but none of the people around our ring were approached. We asked them what they were filming for but they were very general and just said it was a programme about dog shows. No wonder they weren't more specific !!

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posted by Classica

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posted by Starlit Diamonds Kennels
Also with the Cavalier King Charles Spaniel, the genetic condition causing the dog severe pain to the point it was constantly screaming, is down to inbreeding. That dog had to be put to sleep because or ignorant people breeding dogs so close.

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This statement is incorrect. I believe you are referring to Syringomyelia and the condition does NOT result from inbreeding.

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YES it is. Well, put it this way. They wouldn't get a brain too big for it's head out on a walk from a disease would they?

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posted by flamincomet
First of all I want to say that that show is one of the most one-sided, biased programs I have ever seen.

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Yes, but it has highlighted how inbreeding has almost gone beyond the point of no return.

I dont think the programme was one-sided to make people think that all pedigree dog breeders are like this, but to make people aware of what does happen.

It was an emotive programme, and the examples used were quite extreme. It was upsetting to watch for anyone who loves animals.

Anyone who has any sort of knowledge about dog breeding/ showing would know these are extreme examples.

Maybe scaring the people who have so little knowledge about breeding is a good idea, it may stop people getting dogs that they obviously do not have the knowledge to care for properly.

Its a shame they didnt get interviews of people who spend the time and money on health screening, or other methods to help their breeds, to show that the majority of people want to improve their breed. But i think the show was mainly to expose the way some breeders are stuck in their ways and not moving forward.

If you look into the thoroughbred breed of horse it is probably more inbred than most dogs, with millions all over the world, the breed wasnt founded that long ago from 20-30 mares and 3 stallions.

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posted by DeadSet

Yes they should be culled IMO. They are RIDGEbacks. Culling only means to remove a dog from the breeding program. That means placing out, spaying, neutering or sadly killing. EVERY breeder culls in one form or another. Fortunately the latter is nearly unheard of now. If the dog is born with a ridge it does not have spina bifida.. there is a condition called a dermoid sinus that is similar but just because the dog has a ridge doesn't mean it has one that will cause issues. Most RRs never have an issue.

~Morgan

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Hey Morgan
The issue with the Ridgebacks was that some of the older breeders will not place a ridgeless puppy even in a pet home. In the UK this is particularly harsh in my opinion as it is ever so easy to endorse a puppy (free) with the KC so no offspring can be registered thus it is possible for the breeder to guarantee they don't contribute to the gene pool without having to enforce neutering contracts or conduct paediatric neutering.
The breed clubs guidelines stated that ridgeless puppies should be culled (over here that does equal euthanise) but were outdated. It wasn't our KC itself that requested it and although they have the rules and regs sent every year with a clubs annual renewals I seriously doubt whether anyone from KC actually reads them all.

They were removed from the breed clubs website and are under review because the KC chair wrote and asked them to review the situation after the researchers for this programme pointed it out to him. Whilst acceptable years ago I'm not convinced it is so now since the ability to endorse arose.

The ridge is caused by a mild spinal deformation not spina bifida. They did compare the ridge to a condition like a mild form of spina bifida in the programme though. The seperate issue of dermoid sinus is more common over here (around one in twenty ridged RR's) maybe cause our gene pool is smaller than in the US and incidence isn't going down but we are trying to map the gene that causes it for which the breed being so closely bred will probably help matters.



The dog fighting was an issue the breeder raised in that she would rather see the pups pts than end up in the hands of dog fighting people but is not a choice she has to make imo.




The biggest shame of this programme is that they did not show any of the work our KC is already doing. They helped the production company film and research this in good faith and have been shot in the foot. I do not think the KC can br held accountable for each individual breeders actions but I would like to see more compulsory health testing like we already have in place for r&w setters.

If the 1st cavvie featured was experiencing such suffering that the breeder could be held responsible for causing unneccessary suffering the owners should be held to a certain extent accountable. If what the vet said was representative of the pain that dog was in it begs belief he had been in that condition for so long..... they are the ones that could quietly put an end to this dogs suffering.
I agree the breeders should be held liable but more along the lines of deliberately misleading the potential puppy purchasers, vet bills obtained as a result etc.


I too saw them filming at Manchester....... they clearly stayed away from the GSP ring as the breed was flashed up twice in the *healthy mutts* mugshots!?!?!?!

I just thought that I would add that the RSPCA, The Dogs Trust and The National Dog Warden Association have pulled out of Crufts.

NDWA too?
Wow............ Are you sure?





Just thought maybe anyone who reads this may like to write to the RSPCA to enquire as to why "If crufts is a freak show, pedigree dog showing is bad and all pedigree dogs are unhealthy and deformed" do they.....

1. Have pedigree classes at their exsemption shows to raise money for their centre?

2. Charge more to adopt a pedigree dog?


........ or even better just what exactly it has to do with them when such a small proportion of the dogs that pass through their doors are from reputable pedigree breeder.



NO-ONE in their right mind could not be apalled at the actions of some of the individuals in this film or the state certain breeds/lines are in but it is a minority of breeds and the RSPCA's response was completely uncalled for and very poorly thought through......... unfortunately I have seen this coming for a lonng time and whilst the KC sits on their laurels and does nothing I will continue to worry about it. Hopefully they will not wait until they have lost all credence to respond wit actions rather than words.

I will lose no sleep over the RSPCA not attending Crufts. In my opinion it is politically minded organisation which has always been anti pedigree dogs. They are seen as elitist like fox hunting and shooting. However angling where thousands of fish are subjected to distress is considered to be acceptable by the RSPCA. Of course angling is a sport of working class people and fish aren't very cuddly so that makes it OK doesn't it!
When the RSPCA gets off its fat backside and deals properly with the factory farming and inhumane slaughter of millions of animals it might gain a bit more credibility with me. There are farms that have been prosecuted for cruelty to animals whilst holding the RSPCA Freedom Food Standard. I have no objection to people eating meat and dairy as long as the animals are properly treated. Sadly these days the majority of it comes no where near humane.

Just to confirm NDWA have definitely pulled out.

Also with regards to the RSPCA the exemption show classes are decided by the individual branch. At our own open day there were no pedigree classes.

Furthermore my own local branch charges the same fee for dogs whether they are pedigree or not, this policy is the same for cats.

I must admit I very often disagree with the RSPCA BUT I do that pulling out of Crufts may be a good move in some respects.

I support my local branch, but not the RSPCA as a whole.

The idea of angling and humane killing is interesting, but unfortunately in the world we live in, things like this are difficult to cahnge.

My only hope is that All this publicity will help potential owners to make better decisions when buying a dog.

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posted by nat888

The idea of angling and humane killing is interesting, but unfortunately in the world we live in, things like this are difficult to cahnge.

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Therein lies my problem with the RSPCA. They have managed to get hunting and docking banned, yet they approve of castration. Again its ok to mutilate a dog by cutting off its b-ll-cks but not its tail. Also its ok to cut off the tail of a pig or sheep. Double standards.

If the RSPCA put its mind to it and spent the money that they spent campaigning against hunting, they could make a real difference to farm animal welfare. This would help millions of animals rather than a few hundred.

There is a program on Radio 4 at 8pm tonight (23rd September) about the RSPCA and how it operates. it should make interesting listening.

As for you can't change these things, I'm afraid that I see that as a get out. If everyone who thinks they can't change anything gave it a go, things could change. I put it to you to eat less meat so that when you do eat meat you can afford organic. Not only do the animals have a better life but you will benefit from not filling your body with antibiotics and chemicals. I speak as a chemist who has worked for many years in the food industry (but not any longer).

I do completely agree with you. I do all I can my self, but change is difficult to acheive. Also I do buy organic meat and i also buy fish that is not farmed, and free range eggs. But with the current economical state it is the case for most people to get food as cheap as possible, most people will not bankrupt themselves for the sake of animals.

Sorry for going off topic here btw.

For anyone who missed the RSPCA program and would like to hear it, apparently you can access it via the Radio 4 website.
I found it very interesting but it did not tell me anything that surprised me.

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posted by Wicken Fen Kennels

Therein lies my problem with the RSPCA. They have managed to get hunting and docking banned, yet they approve of castration.

Also its ok to cut off the tail of a pig or sheep. Double standards.

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I actually supported their campaign to ban fox hunting........ they poll the people who make donations and ask them to rate the importance of issues to them.

The docking issue is a sore one for me (I have GSP's which until now have been very much a dual purpose breed so the law as it stands is hitting us hard)......... I saw this coming a long time ago and do not think the CDB was anywhere near proactive enough.



However I do not give them money so it worries me not how they spend it and if they keep on getting increasingly extreme in their viewpoints they will soon lose supporters......... The number of people I know who have recently said they will no longer be giving them money is already into double figures.




I actually used to work for them many years ago and they were nowhere near so political in those days. I continue to have good contacts with our neighbouring centre (their paddocks border our land) and the majority of staff are actually fairly sensible........ where they have fallen down is by giving too much power to the "friends of the RSPCA" groups.

They are running away with themselves a little I think trying to take on the Kennel Club and getting so personal with their attacks........ I think their success with their hunting and docking campaigns has gone to their heads and with any luck they will shoot themselves in the foot with this one.

It is a tad anoying because had they gone about this in a different way they would have had the support of many exhibitors, but their heavy handed approach and extreme statements and overgeneralisation has made everyone jittery.
So far I have heard a lot of attacks made on our KC but not a lot of constructive suggestions about the way forward.



In the mean time the proportion of crossbreeds and mongrels, presumably deliberately bred and I doubt having had any parental health screening, coming through the door and into my puppy classes has rocketed. This is probably representative of what is out there on the street and I have also noticed the proportion of puppies brought from pet shops is creeping up.
Whether or not this was the impact the RSPCA desired who knows but it is not at all constructive for the health of the canine population or animal welfare to have people turning away from the reputable breeder to puppy mills/pet shops/BYB's.
The puppies that end up in class are the lucky ones......... there are always owners that just should not have had a dog and inevitably these end up in rescue. I can't help but wonder how long it is going to take the RSPCA to realise that without breed rescue they are going to end up at their door!!!!!
Perhaps the more cynical would point out that rehoming centres in the South East are at the moment shipping dogs down from Up north and Ireland to sell.



ETA
What I actually posted to say was........
Not only is it considered to be okay to dock lambs and piglets which are much more developmentaly advanced when the procedure is carried out you can actually be prosecuted for NOT taking the tails off if said sheep later gets fly.
Flystrike is the second biggest killer of sheep (after lamb chops ) and if the tail is left on and gets mucky it is the perfect place for flies to lay their eggs.

Ironic isn't it.

YOU SHOULD LOOK UP PUPPY MILLS, CAT MILLS, AND BIRD MILLS ON THE WORLD WIDE WEB. THAT'LL GIVE YOU SOMETHING TO RANT ABOUT!

I CAMPAIGN AGAINST THEM BY THE WAY.
PS: IF ANYBODY WANTS TO JOIN MY CLUB, THE SOCIETY FOR A BETTER EARTH, (SBE) THAT'D BE AWESOME, CUZ THEN IT WOULD TRAVEL FROM THE U.S. TO THE U.K.!! THE SBE DEALS WITH ANIMAL WELFARE AND ENVIRONMENTAL ISSUES, AND THE LIKE.
ALSO, THE TIGER CLUB IS PART OF THAT, IF ANY OF YOU ARE TIGER LOVERS.

PPS: DONT FORGET TO TELL YOUR FRIENDS!!!!