.com Forum · General

per advice to breed for color I bred 2 blacks to 2 harlequins; FH'd most of the litter but each got 2 harlequin and 1 lethal white.

Being as there is no harlequin in the background if lethal is a 'double' appearance as the merle gene how did I get2 lethal whites then?

prehaps both parents carrie the genes, a black dog can have genes for other colours but as black is domanant (normaly) the dog will be black but can passthem on to its pups.
(not sure of greatdane genitics though)

A lethal white is a double-Harle, single merle or double merle. **HH**M***.

I've found that the gene that was lost is NOT harlequin but merle. A harle will not show if the dog does not have a single dose of merle.

So your black bitch carries Harlequin, possibly in double dose, but not merle; the harle you bred to contributed a merle gene and a harle gene. I have a 98.9 bitch that carries harlequin.

Edit to add, here's a list of colors & genes:
K > kbr > k.
Name Genetics
Black D***K*mmS*
Blue dd**K*mmS*
Blue (Dilute) Merle ddhhK*MmS*
Blue (dilute) merle mantle ddhhK*Mmss
Blue Brindle dd**kbrmmS*
Blue brindle harlequin ddHhkbr*MmS*
Blue brindle harlequin mantle ddHhkbr*Mmss
Blue brindle Mantle dd**kbr*mmss
Blue brindle merle ddhhkbr*MmS*
Blue brindle merle mantle ddhhkbr*Mmss
Blue Fawn dd**kkmmS*
Blue fawn harlequin ddHhkkMmS*
Blue fawn harlequin mantle ddHhkkMmss
Blue Fawn Mantle dd**kkmmss
Blue fawn merle ddhhkkMmS*
Blue fawn merle mantle ddhhkkMmss
Blue harlequin ddHhK*MmS*
Blue harlequin mantle ddHhK*Mmss
Blue Mantle dd**K*mmss
Brindle D***kbr*mmS*
Brindle harlequin D*Hhkbr*MmS*
Brindle harlequin mantle D*Hhkbr*Mmss
Brindle Mantle D***kbr*mmss
Brindle merle D*hhkbr*MmS*
Brindle merle mantle D*hhkbr*Mmss
Double Merle **hh**MM**
Fawn D***kkmmS*
Fawn harlequin D*HhkkMmS*
Fawn harlequin mantle D*HhkkMmss
Fawn Mantle D***kkmmss
Fawn merle D*hhkkMmS*
Fawn merle mantle D*hhkkMmss
Harlequin D*HhK*MmS*
Harlequin mantle D*HhK*Mmss
Lethal White Harlequin **HH**M***
Mantle D***K*mmss
Merle D*hhK*MmS*
Merle Mantle D*hhK*Mmss
White **Hh**MM**

Bitch 1 - have looked back 9 generations and see only blacks, a fawn and brindle - I thought this was a new/rare color as the harlequin are still very rough score wise.

Bitch 2 - same predominant black. maternal great grandsire was fawn. Even going back 700+days I'm finding black - not harlie.

Bred both of these solid blacks - with mostly black pedigree save for the occasional solid fawn or solid brindle - to different harlequin sires with same result.

With the game based on reality then a black dane from solid mostly black pedigree can in one generation throw a lethal white? I understand carrying it but not expressing - but if it wasn't in the game there's nothing to carry - black is black is black. Bred to a harlequin I expected black and harlequin - but a lethal white with nothing on the bottom side harlequin wise to 'connect' to doesn't make sense. I'm not sure if there's merles on here - I see fawn, brindle, black and now harlequin and mantle (few) - so does it assume that 50 generation back there was a harlequin even though it's black etc on the pedigrees? And if so how is it prevented?

In order for you to "see" that a dog carries the harlequin gene, the dog must ALSO be a visible merle. So you have generation after generation of HH puppies, but because the merle gene got lost in the early days, no one can "see" the harlequin bits. The dogs are just solid black.

So what you did was breed a bitch that was H*mm (black) to a stud that was HhMm (harlequin). I would guess that about half the pups came out solid black; a quarter came out harlequin; and a quarter lethal whites.

Now what you probably found in your research that there was no MERLE in the lines behind both bitches after probably the first 10 generations or so. So even if they inherited the harlequin gene down the line, without the merle gene you cannot see it.

As many RL breeders have discovered, it's quite difficult to breed harlequin properly without getting a buttload of mismarks. Ideally, you take one parent that is visible harlequin and breed it to a black or mantle that cannot carry harlequin.

For a dozen generations plus there is not only no merle (harlie etc) but nothing but black save for a fawn or brindle. If the game original dogs were just brindle, fawn and black I don't see how there's anything else to factor in.

Was told FH the blacks in the litter (which they won't be as good as the solid blacks so why feed 'em out) - how to find one that cannot carry harlequin is what I'm asking - because these have nothing but solid colors behind them that I've been able to find.

If there is no way to tell based on pedigree what is there then there's no chance to find one that cannot carry harlequin. It's 'hidden' in all of them randomly?

Without a merle or harlequin in the pedigree I'm not seeing how it just magically appears is what I'm saying. It has to come from somewhere

So in the generation 3 there's a mess. And whoever told me these were new colors in the game was less than honest...1st generation shows a mantle breeding a miniature bull terrier producing a german shepherd.That was bred to a fawn GD w/ unknown result which was heavily inbred for a couple of generations. Generation 8 shows that train wreck in 3 of 4 lines - but breeding that tight produced solids? Ref www.showdog.com/Users/dog_info.aspx?name=Ch%20BDThundas%20Fortune%20PZ%20Hawk

About 2000 days ago - this can lurk for that long with solids before cropping up a lethal white, with the recessives not expressing before?

The reason you found a mini bull terrier in the pedigree was a glich a while back when some dogs were deleted from the data base and someone came along and used the same name. Was pretty entertaining when it happened, so no, crossbreeding has never happened on the ShowDog.com sim.



Latricia

I'm just seeing a line of the pedigree that doesn't fork with those in it - trying to figure where a lethal white came from after 40some generations of solid dogs...if these aren't accurate there's *no* telling what can or cannot carry whatever gene then. And it seems all danes go to them

"If there is no way to tell based on pedigree what is there then there's no chance to find one that cannot carry harlequin. It's 'hidden' in all of them randomly?"

CORRECT!!!

The only way to determine, for certain, is to breed to a double merle and see if you get harlequin or not. If you get harlequin, then it is for certain that the black carries harlequin; if you do not, then you haven't confirmed the absence but in one litter of 10-11 pups, I would consider it "close enough."

Color in Danes is probably the hardest of all the breeds to keep sorted out, so I'm not surprised that you are confused by all this!

That said, if you get any colored mismarks, like fawn mantles, brindle harlequins, blue masked fawns, that sort of thing, PLEASE PM me because I would love to have them in my color program in the Fluttervale account.

From the six "correct" Dane colors, here is what you absolutely know for certain:
Black - Does not carry merle
Blue - Definite on blue; does not carry merle
Brindle - Does not carry merle (but bred to a black can produce black)
Fawn - Does not carry black or brindle (but bred to a black, can produce black, may produce brindle; bred to brindle can produce brindle); does not carry merle
Mantle - Does not carry merle; definite on mantle marked but can produce non-mantle when bred to a non-mantle
Harlequin - Definitely harlequin carrying non-harlequin; Definitely merle carrying non-merle.
Harlequin Mantle - See properties of both mantle & harlequin.

It just says harlequin - no mention of base color. I have a 98.8 brindle very closely related to the dam of 1 of these litters - same sire but his dam is granddam of the mama. Most from very similar lines - not breeding for color before now just quality; seems a step back. I see lethals for sale for $1k but it seems like it's unneeded as I haven't found a dane yet that doesn't trace to the same early dogs...so all will carry it.

When it says Harlequin, it means a black based harlequin. The Dane people were great about setting up colors and if it's a fawn harlequin, it will say so.