.com Forum · Toy Poodle

I recently messaged all of the Toy Poodle Breeds listed to let everyone know that we were looking into the problem with color.

For us, as breeders, the issue has been a problem producing white puppies. What we have found is a problem in the coding with the E locus. This has produced a number of Silver and Silver Beige puppies that should not have been shown as silver/silver beige.

We have a couple of options available to us to correct the problem.

1. Neb (Lilliput) is willing to rewrite the code. Rewriting the code will make the genetics truer to life. BUT, rewriting the code has the potential to affect a LOT of dogs' colors.

2. The other option is to leave the code as is and simply look for the missing combinations and rename them.

Here is Neb's note for everyone's reference:
>>>>Message: I think what I need to know from the other poodle breeder is, do they want to keep the current code and just have me assign more correct color names to the misnamed missing codes? Or do they want me to rework the whole thing?

For the first option, I'll need to know from Jeff which combinations are not accounted for in your code and I can try and fit them in somewhere.

For the second, I think I can actually give you a simpler, and more accurate code that covers everything pretty easily.

The first option will likely effect fewer dogs- you'll be using the same code, only the dogs with the missing combinations will change color names.

The second option may mean that ALL dogs in the breed are affected, as the code would be redone.

If it matters, you're current code does not reflect what is known about RL genetics very well. It was sort of mashed together to make it work for SD. However, you've been using it and working with it for a few years now, so I understand if they wish to keep it.

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What we need here in the forum now is everyone's vote as to what you would prefer - Keep the code and just make the missing code corrections or rewrite the code so that it is truer to life.

My vote is that we rewrite the code so that the colors/breeding are true to life.

It would not bother me if every dog in my kennel changed color. I would prefer the realistic color breeding.

Rhonda

I agree. The color code to get white dogs is really a problem.

Iris

While I realize that white is not an easy colour to come buy, I have four toy poodle kennels on SD that I am working on specific colours and getting an better overall SOP and Genetic Quality for the toy poodles in general, if we start messing with the colour codes then all the hard work will be in vain because all the colours would change.

I vote to let it stay the way it is right now or if you do decide to change it let it be in a way that will not affect the entire colour codes.

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posted by High Grove
While I realize that white is not an easy colour to come buy, I have four toy poodle kennels on SD that I am working on specific colours and getting an better overall SOP and Genetic Quality for the toy poodles in general, if we start messing with the colour codes then all the hard work will be in vain because all the colours would change.

I vote to let it stay the way it is right now or if you do decide to change it let it be in a way that will not affect the entire colour codes.

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For clarification - the intent is not to "mess with the color code" but to correct the errors in the existing code. I can ask Neb for a more accurate estimate - but I would not expect ALL colors to change. I would say that we would possibly see changes in silvers, whites, silver beige, apricots and possibly creams.

Now that we have verified there is an error I don't see that it is an option to leave the code as is.

I don't think that any of the work on SOP will have been in vain. After the corrections are made you will be able to accurately breed for color.


Am I correct in interpreting that you have 3 of the 5 Toy Poodle kennels currently listed?

High Grove is correct. If I rewrite the code to make it easier/true to life, ALL dogs and colors will be affected. Any current color programs will have to start over. However, it might also mean that different colors will be rare or common. My guess is that Jeff would have to remove colors, and then completely restart them from the source dogs. I doubt he will be able to simply keep the current colors and change the coding for those dogs.

If I simply find the missing codes and name them/fill in the gaps, you will keep your current color model. Only dogs who have the missing genotypes will be affected, and then the only thing that will change is their name, not the genetics behind them. Or at least I believe this is how it will work. I only do the coding, it's Jeff's department to apply it to the game. This option will mean your color code will probably not reflect real life. If your code is ever lost, people may have difficulty figuring out how genetics work here on the game because it won't have any semblance to what is known about RL colors. It also means that we may have to discuss where to fit certain genetic combos in- I generally know what a dog with a certain code would look like in RL, then the question becomes, how do you want me to fit it into your code, and will we need to create any new color names to accommodate them.

I have four kennels High Grove, PomDel, Enchante, and Mon Cherie
I think I have all the colors SD has between them, in High Grove I am working on White and Cream and Blues, PomDel is working on Brown, Black and Cafe Au Lait, Enchante is working on White, Silver Beige, and Silver, and in Mon Cherie I am working on Reds and Apricots.

Silver Beige are coming along nicely and I know that they carry White as I am getting them.

Since this is a simulated game and not real life I think the we should just let everything alone as from experience if you start changing one thing you may effect something that you may not think would be effected later on.

Most players are not dog breeders they do not know the genetics of real life poodles, I am sure if you look at some of the other breeds you will notice that you are getting colors that you would never get in real life.

I really think the main problem is that there are not enough toy poodle kennels to develop these colors, as there is only you and Iris and myself that are currently active in breeding and showing. The rest are basic users who just want to add a toy poodle to their kennel and then they never do anything with it.



That is just my too cents worth.

Melodie

In that case the best option might be to identify the codes that are missing from your current code (the ee silver beiges for instance) and merely ask Jeff what exactly he named them. It will change nothing about your current dogs, and you'll have it written down, so people will stop getting surprises.

That is pretty much the same as option 2, only I won't even bother to try and give those combinations a more appropriate color name (for instance, currently silver beige is strictly an E- color in your model, we can either A. merely add the ee combinations labeled silver-beige to the code as silver beige, OR B. take those ee combos currently labeled silver beige, and have those particular dogs relabeled as a color that is currently ee.

>>Since this is a simulated game and not real life I think the we should just let everything alone as from experience if you start changing one thing you may effect something that you may not think would be effected later on.

Most players are not dog breeders they do not know the genetics of real life poodles, I am sure if you look at some of the other breeds you will notice that you are getting colors that you would never get in real life.

I really think the main problem is that there are not enough toy poodle kennels to develop these colors, as there is only you and Iris and myself that are currently active in breeding and showing.

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When I started playing SD in 2009 colors had only recently been added and some breeds did not have colors at all. It was up to the current players in each breed to check for errors when colors were added. It seems that until now no one has taken the time to determine the problem and put forth the effort to get the problem corrected in Toy Poodles.

SD is a sim; but what is nice about most sims and SD in particular is that the game should mirror real life. I don't believe that correcting the toy poodle problem is going to affect anything other than the toy poodle colors.

We had to do a couple of updates in Collies before the colors and coats were working correctly there - the only thing that you will see change is POSSIBLY the color. Since there was a time when there were no colors - I just don't see that as a huge issue. SOP and correct genetic coding is what's important.

I disagree with your statement about players knowing genetics. I think the majority of players do take the time to learn the color genetics of their breeds and I would say almost all "color breeders" MUST learn the genetics of their breed in order to color breed successfully. By knowing the genetics and having the genetics in the game function properly you can more reliably choose options that will produce better SOP puppies of the desired colors.
When you have genetics that don't work properly - you cannot accurately predict what colors you are going to possibly get in your litters. You may not have played long enough to realize the importance of the genetic coding.

I know of NO breed on SD that produces colors that are not possible in real life. That is NOT to say that breeds don't produce colors that are frowned upon or disqualifications in real life. The genetics in SD were intended to work JUST LIKE real life as much as possible.

The problem with Toy Poodles is not the number of players. The problem is there is an error in the genetic coding. As long as the error exists, it doesn't matter how many players there are - the color genetics still won't work properly.

I understand that you feel like you may lose progress in certain colors. I guess since I was here when ALL SOPs got rolled back - I don't see the possibility of changing the color of the dog as a set back. (When that change was made we had dogs that went from 98+ SOP back to 79 and 80) With this color issue SOPs are not going to be affected. If dog A's SOP is 79.5 now, it's going to be 79.5 after the coding correction - it just might be a different color. I would rather have the problem corrected, see what I end up with and move on with the knowledge and ability to breed according to the genetic model with reliable results.

Again, when I started there were a number of breeds that didn't have colors at all, so I don't see the possibility of changing colors as the end of the world. What I would like to see is: if I breed a black dog out of a white parent to a silver dog out of a white parent I should be able to get a white puppy. It is my understanding that the way the genetics are currently coded - that is not possible.

According to Neb - here are our options:
(My "vote" / notes in parantheses)

1. Complete overhaul. All dogs will change color, but the model will be much more logical and more true to life.
(This is my preference)

2. Find the combinations that were missing from your current code. Figure out what to name them within the parameters of the current code that makes the most sense. This option will likely require more input from you guys down the road as to where to classify each.
Only dogs of the missing combos are effected, and only to correctly reflect their genetics- their combinations do not change
(I could live with this if I had to)

3. Keep the current code, ask Jeff what the missing combinations are, and what he named them. Add those codes under the name Jeff used for them. No dogs change color.
(I do not want this.)

4. Do nothing. No dogs change color, but you still don't know what the missing combinations are or what colors they have been labeled as, so the problem will still exist.
(I do not want this.)

Well I give up, I am willing to play the game with the colours and codeing that are already here however you are determined, and no matter what I say you are always going to have something to say to contradict it.

So in that case why don't you add phantoms, parti's, brindles, and sables to the mix. These are poodle colours to!

If you are a show breeder, these colours are not acceptable, however these are poodle colours as well.

Thats all I have to say on the subject.

Melodie
I have my own opinion and I am entitled to defend it, just as you are entitled to defend yours.

I am simply trying to respond to your comments to show why I feel we need to correct the error in the toy poodle genetic coding. The intent is to help us come to an agreement, find a compromise, etc.