.com Forum · Toy Poodle

I was looking at a stud for my single Toy female and was surprised to find Silvers born of White/Cream/Red parents which should be impossible.

Eg. Jakes Silver 82 www.showdog.com/users/dog_info.aspx?id=7952493

Sire is Cream
BBcchcchddeeGg
BBcchcchddeegg
BbcchcchcchddeeGg
Bbcchcchcchddeegg
bbcchcchddeeGg
bbcchcchddeegg

Dam is White
BBcchcchddeeGG
BbcchcchcchddeeGG
bbcchcchddeeGG

Both parents are double "e" ee, to have a silver you need EE or Ee. Where did the puppy inherit a big E from?

Another instance

Rainbeaus Silver 83 www.showdog.com/users/dog_info.aspx?id=7829025
Rainbeaus Silver 63 www.showdog.com/users/dog_info.aspx?name=Rainbeaus%20Silver%2063

In 2 different litters it happened -

Sire is Red
BBCCDDeeGg
BBCCDDeegg
BBCCDdeeGg
BBCCDdeegg
BBCcchDDeeGg
BBCcchDDeegg
BBCcchDdeeGg
BBCcchDdeegg
BbCCDDeeGg
BbCCDDeegg
BbCCDdeeGg
BbCCDdeegg
BbCcchDDeeGg
BbCcchDDeegg
BbCcchDdeeGg
BbCcchDdeegg
bbCCDDeeGg
bbCCDDeegg
bbCCDdeeGg
bbCCDdeegg
bbCcchDDeeGg
bbCcchDDeegg
bbCcchDdeeGg
bbCcchDdeegg

Dam is Cream
BBcchcchddeeGg
BBcchcchddeegg
BbcchcchcchddeeGg
Bbcchcchcchddeegg
bbcchcchddeeGg
bbcchcchddeegg

Again both parents are ee, they have to be to be either Cream or Red. Yet to have a Silver there needs to be and "E" in there.
It should be the ONLY way to get silvers from a Red/Apricot/Cream/White is for the other parent to be Black/Brown/Cafe au Lait/Blue/Silver Beige/Silver.

I don't believe that the formula is broken.

These dogs have starter dogs in the 5th generation. The starter dogs bring an interesting flavor because we simply don't know what formulas are used in their 'makeup'.

I believe with the Ee and ee genes strange occurrances can happen as it is a non extension gene.

Sounds to me like you should be experimenting with this color to prove your theory

If you look at the entire pedigree there are colors that can produce the Silver (in your second posting) and that is probably what is 'popping' forward. This is called recessive and it can drive a real life breeder crazy

Hey thanks for replying!

But both parents have only an e each to pass on, they don't carry an E hidden because E is dominant over e and you simply can not have an E and be white/cream/apricot/red. It doesn't matter that there are source dogs there, or what kind of gene the e is because in showdog.com the genetics engine is very simple in comparison to real life. Both parents are ee, you can only choose between ee, ee, ee and ee as possible combinations of the genes.

I actually built a script based on the gene work ups - showdogjudgelist.coolinc.info/colour.php

I still can't see how programming logically that and "E" can appear from this breeding and in real life it would only happen due to spontaneous mutation.

Everything that we know about genes is based on a theory.

Most of the time the theory holds.

To be honest I don't really care how the rare colors get put back into the breed.
When color was brought into the mix nearly all of the Toy poodles were cream. There were a few Reds, Apricots and Blacks. Very few Browns and Blues. There were no Whites, Silvers or Siver Biege that were not very, very old and once discovered and used a couple of times they "Died".

I've been playing this game for over 5 years. I have three kennels and I'm working on the rare colors in all three kennels. My goal is to produce a white, silver or silver biege with the stats to win a CH.

bump

www.showdog.com/users/dog_info.aspx?id=11455618

is a...

bb - Ccch - Dd - ee - GG

and while Silver Beige is not correct, that color model posted doesn't account for that color pattern.