.com Forum · Canaan Dog

In case you missed seeing the news, Jeff is going to start implementing dog colors:

www.showdog.com/login/philboard_read.aspx?id=170895

So our job is to wrangle out a) the different colors, and b) how common each one is.

First off, the AKC has this to say about accepted colors: it can range from black to red, liver, and tan. In dogs with whitespotting, self-ticking is allowed. Disqualifications are gray, brindle, and solid white (albino?). Not sure what gray is, unless it's another name for the wild agouti coloring seen in wolves.

I've been unable to locate any information on how frequently the different colors appear, but I did find this excellent article on the color genetics of Canaans— maybe by sorting out this info we could make a rough estimate based on the relative dominance of the genes?

www.thecanaandog.co.uk/details/colour-genetics-of-the-canaan-dog-229.html

Looking forward to hearing from everyone. It would be great if we can be ready when Jeff gets to Canaans and just hand him over everything he needs.

Hannah

I've been looking around since you posted this but I just can't find any information on the frequency of Canaan dog colors. A few websites stated that black and whites are most common in America, but that's as much as I could gather.

I'll keep looking though... canaan information just isn't as accessible as we need it to be since they are a rarer breed.

Since Jeff is now asking for us to help him out with genes and colors we should probbaly get to work if we want to see colors in our Canaans! I know very little about Canaans, but a lot about genetics in breeding dogs, so hopefully we can all work together and be ready for Jeff! I started by pulling this from the AKC standard, since I had really no true idea what the allowed colors were.

AKC Color:
There are two color patterns. Pattern 1) Predominantly white with mask and with or without additional patches of color (large body patches are desirable). Pattern 2) Solid colored with or without white trim. Color may range from black through all shades of brown - sandy to red or liver. Shadings of black on a solid brown or tan dog are frequently seen. The trim on a solid colored dog may include chest, undercarriage, feet and lower part of leg and tip of tail. In all color patterns self-ticking may be present. Disqualifications--a) Gray and/or brindle. b) All white.

FCI Color:
Colour: Sand to red-brown, white, black, or spotted, with or without mask. If masked, mask must be symmetrical. Black mask permitted on all colours. White markings are permitted on all colours. Boston Terrier patterns are common. Grey, brindle, black-and-tan or tricolour are unacceptable. Desert colours sand, gold, red, cream are most typical of the breed.


There is discrepancy between the two, so we may have to decide what we want to see in our showdog canaans (such as white- allowed in FCI, DQd in AKC?)

I'll keep looking. Post what you find and we can maybe have a discussion and vote on colors and then start putting together the genetics of each?

Lindsey

After some searching I can find nothing on dominance and inheritance of the canaan dog's colors. We are going to have to draw information from a similar breed I think in order to fill in the gaps. We might want to start by listing all the possible base coat colors (gold, cream, sand, white, etc.) then separately listing distinguishing markings, such as masks, spots, patches, tuxedo markings, etc. then deciding from there how the two interact, possibly looking at another breed as a model. We're going to have to decide which colors are dominate and recessive, how many alleles are used to control color and how many for coat markings. At the same time, Jeff wants us to keep it as simple as possible.

So, let's start with base coat colors, add to this list as you see fit:

Gold
Tan/Sand
Cream
White
Black
Red


Body markings:
Tuxedo jacket (what is the official name of this coloring?! Mantle?)
Mask
Spotting

Mask Colors:
Black
Tan/Sand
(anymore? not quite sure)

Spotting Colors:
Gold
Tan/Sand
Cream
Black
Red

Anything else?

Lindsey

Base colours

A gene
A>ay
A/- = AA or Aay

B gene
B>b
B/- = BB or Bb

C gene
C>ch
C/- = CC or Cch


Black
A/- B/- C/-
A/- B/- chch

Red
A/- bb C/-

Gold
ayay B/- C/-
ayay bb C/-


Sand
A/- bb chch

Cream
ayay B/- chch
ayay bb chch

Markings
- with any of the base colours above will be reflective of base colour.

Mask - any mask darker than base colour
EmEm - mask
EmE - mask
EE - no mask

Ticking - same colour as base colour
TT or Tt - ticking
tt - no ticking

White - the rest is the base colour
SS or Ssi or Ssp - no white
sisi or sisp - white edges
spsp - mostly white with patches of colour

grif,

Thanks, griffin! It looks good to me, except black/tan and red/tan aren't accepted colours.

Anyone else have questions, comments, objections, or is this ready to be submitted to Jeff?

Hannah

Jeff is going to want percentages, as well as names for all possible combinations. The Canaan dog genetics site you gave was EXCELLENT. I can work up a complete color list from that for you, give me a day or two.

The two things I would reccomend- the site listed clearly showed several examples of B&T Canaans, and stated that they have been bred and shown in the UK. I would include this color. It is clearly in you genome and as an extreme recessive would be difficult to remove entirely from the RL population. Start it at the right proportion, and it is unlikely to become a big problem for you, but will keepo the realism with the occassional SUPRISE! puppy. My other question is about coat length. I didn't realise Canaans carried for long hair, but this site says they do. I would add this too, to keep it real.

My last question is about black masks. Do you want them? The pictures given didn't show a very clear and impressive mask, it makes little difference if a dog has a mask or not, its just a little extra "icing". If black masks don't matter much, I can leave them off. It will give you less colors to deal with. On the other hand, if you feel people may want the option in the future, I'll add them in.

Note that there are no current color DQs. Jeff has stated that they may never be implemented at all, but if they are, he will give lots of warning (at least 6 months). This means even if you get colors you don't like, you will have plenty of time to breed away from them. Including the DQs now does no harm, adds an extra dimension, and keeps in the spirit of the game. I've only reccomended DQs that are clearly part of the breed- ones that are exceptionally rare or the result of outcrosses I have ignored. I want you guys to have a good, correct color code that you can be proud of. Let me know What you want, and I'll get working. -Neb

ETA- the black mask which I asked about is very different from the msk described in your standard. In your standard, the mask pertains to colored marking on the head of a mostly white dog. The black mask gene is different- it refers to a black mask of the face of a red/cream dog, which may be solid or parti. This type of mask is what causes the black face seen in Malinois, Tervuren, Mastiffs, Pugs etc.

Ok, here we go-

Possible Alleles-

BB, Bb- black
bb- liver

AyAy, Ayat-red/sable
atat- black and tan

EE,Ee- allows all other colors
ee- recessive red (in canaans produces cream/ white)

KK, Kk- black or liver
kk- allows red/sable, black and tan

TT,Tt- ticking
tt-no ticking

CC, Cch- full color
chch- dilutes red/tan

SS,Ssi,Ssp- solid
sisi,sisp- irish spotting (white chest, feet, collar and blaze)
spsp- white spotting- a white dog with splashes of color

LL,Ll- regular coat
ll-long coat

Which gives us-
Black-
K-/B-/(AyAy,AyAt,AtAt)/(CC,Cch,chch)/(TT,Tt,tt)/E-/S-/L-

Black (long coat)-
K-/B-/(AyAy,AyAt,AtAt)/(CC,Cch,chch)/(TT,Tt,tt)/E-/S-/ll

Black and White-
K-/B-/(AyAy,AyAt,AtAt)/(CC,Cch,chch)/tt/E-/(sisi, sisp)/L-

Black and White Long Coat-
K-/B-/(AyAy,AyAt,AtAt)/(CC,Cch,chch)/tt/E-/(sisi, sisp)/ll

White and Black-
K-/B-/(AyAy,AyAt,AtAt)/(CC,Cch,chch)/tt/E-/spsp/L-

White and Black Long Coat-
K-/B-/(AyAy,AyAt,AtAt)/(CC,Cch,chch)/tt/E-/spsp/ll

Black and White Ticked-
K-/B-/(AyAy,AyAt,AtAt)/(CC,Cch,chch)/T-/E-/(sisi/sisp)/L-

Black and White Ticked Long Coat-
K-/B-/(AyAy,AyAt,AtAt)/(CC,Cch,chch)/T-/E-/(sisi/sisp)/ll

White and Black Ticked-
K-/B-/(AyAy,AyAt,AtAt)/(CC,Cch,chch)/T-/E-/spsp/L-

White and Black Ticked Long Coat-
K-/B-/(AyAy,AyAt,AtAt)/(CC,Cch,chch)/T-/E-/spsp/ll

Liver
K-/bb/(AyAy,AyAt,AtAt)/(CC,Cch,chch)/(TT,Tt,tt)/E-/S-/L-

Liver Long Coat
K-/bb/(AyAy,AyAt,AtAt)/(CC,Cch,chch)/(TT,Tt,tt)/E-/S-/ll

Liver and White-
K-/bb/(AyAy,AyAt,AtAt)/(CC,Cch,chch)/tt/E-/(sisi, sisp)/L-

Liver and White Long Coat-
K-/bb/(AyAy,AyAt,AtAt)/(CC,Cch,chch)/tt/E-/(sisi, sisp)/ll

White and Liver-
K-/bb/(AyAy,AyAt,AtAt)/(CC,Cch,chch)/tt/E-/spsp/L-

White and Liver Long Coat-
K-/bb/(AyAy,AyAt,AtAt)/(CC,Cch,chch)/tt/E-/spsp/ll

Liver and White Ticked-
K-/bb/(AyAy,AyAt,AtAt)/(CC,Cch,chch)/T-/E-/(sisi, sisp)/L-

Liver and White Ticked Long Coat-
K-/bb/(AyAy,AyAt,AtAt)/(CC,Cch,chch)/T-/E-/(sisi, sisp)/ll

White and Liver Ticked-
K-/bb/(AyAy,AyAt,AtAt)/(CC,Cch,chch)/T-/E-/spsp/L-

White and Liver Ticked Long Coat-
K-/bb/(AyAy,AyAt,AtAt)/(CC,Cch,chch)/T-/E-/spsp/ll

Cream-
(KK,Kk,kk)/B-/(AyAy,AyAt,AtAt)/C-/(TT,Tt,tt)/ee/S-/L-
(KK,Kk,kk)/bb/(AyAy,AyAt,AtAt)/C-/(TT,Tt,tt)/ee/S-/L- (liver pigmented)

Cream Long Coat-
(KK,Kk,kk)/B-/(AyAy,AyAt,AtAt)/C-/(TT,Tt,tt)/ee/S-/ll
(KK,Kk,kk)/bb/(AyAy,AyAt,AtAt)/C-/(TT,Tt,tt)/ee/S-/ll (liver pigmented)

Cream and White-
(KK,Kk,kk)/B-/(AyAy,AyAt,AtAt)/C-/tt/ee/(sisi, sisp)/L-
(KK,Kk,kk)/bb/(AyAy,AyAt,AtAt)/C-/tt/ee/(sisi, sisp)/L-(liver pigmented)

Cream and White Long Coat-
(KK,Kk,kk)/B-/(AyAy,AyAt,AtAt)/C-/tt/ee/(sisi, sisp)/ll
(KK,Kk,kk)/bb/(AyAy,AyAt,AtAt)/C-/tt/ee/(sisi, sisp)/ll (liver pigmented)

White and Cream-
(KK,Kk,kk)/B-/(AyAy,AyAt,AtAt)/C-/tt/ee/spsp/L-
(KK,Kk,kk)/bb/(AyAy,AyAt,AtAt)/C-/tt/ee/spsp/L- (liver pigmented)

White and Cream Long Coat-
(KK,Kk,kk)/B-/(AyAy,AyAt,AtAt)/C-/tt/ee/spsp/ll
(KK,Kk,kk)/bb/(AyAy,AyAt,AtAt)/C-/tt/ee/spsp/ll (liver pigmented)

Cream and White Ticked-
(KK,Kk,kk)/B-/(AyAy,AyAt,AtAt)/C-/T-/ee/(sisi, sisp)/L-
(KK,Kk,kk)/bb/(AyAy,AyAt,AtAt)/C-/T-/ee/(sisi, sisp)/L- (liver pigmented)

Cream and White Ticked Long Coat-
(KK,Kk,kk)/B-/(AyAy,AyAt,AtAt)/C-/T-/ee/(sisi, sisp)/ll
(KK,Kk,kk)/bb/(AyAy,AyAt,AtAt)/C-/T-/ee/(sisi, sisp)/ll (liver pigmented)

White and Cream Ticked-
(KK,Kk,kk)/B-/(AyAy,AyAt,AtAt)/C-/T-/ee/spsp/L-
(KK,Kk,kk)/bb/(AyAy,AyAt,AtAt)/C-/T-/ee/spsp/L- (liver pigmented)

White and Cream Ticked Long Coat-
(KK,Kk,kk)/B-/(AyAy,AyAt,AtAt)/C-/T-/ee/spsp/ll
(KK,Kk,kk)/bb/(AyAy,AyAt,AtAt)/C-/T-/ee/spsp/ll (liver pigmented)

White-
(KK,Kk,kk)/B-/(AyAy,AyAt,AtAt)/chch/(TT,Tt,tt)/ee/(SS,Ssi,Ssp,sisi,sisp,spsp)/L-

(KK,Kk,kk)/bb/(AyAy,AyAt,AtAt)/chch/(TT,Tt,tt)/ee/(SS,Ssi,Ssp,sisi,sisp,spsp)/L- (liver pigmented)

White Long Coat-
(KK,Kk,kk)/B-/(AyAy,AyAt,AtAt)/chch/(TT,Tt,tt)/ee/(SS,Ssi,Ssp,sisi,sisp,spsp)/ll

(KK,Kk,kk)/bb/(AyAy,AyAt,AtAt)/chch/(TT,Tt,tt)/ee/(SS,Ssi,Ssp,sisi,sisp,spsp)/ll (liver pigmented)

Gold-
kk/B-/Ay-/C-/(TT,Tt,tt)/E-/S-/L-
kk/bb/Ay-/C-/(TT,Tt,tt)/E-/S-/L- (liver pigmented)

Gold Long Coat-
kk/B-/Ay-/C-/(TT,Tt,tt)/E-/S-/ll
kk/bb/Ay-/C-/(TT,Tt,tt)/E-/S-/ll (liver pigmented)

Gold and White-
kk/B-/Ay-/C-/tt/E-/(sisi,sisp)/L-
kk/bb/Ay-/C-/tt/E-/(sisi,sisp)/L- (liver pigmented)

Gold and White Long Coat-
kk/B-/Ay-/C-/tt/E-/(sisi,sisp)/ll
kk/bb/Ay-/C-/tt/E-/(sisi,sisp)/ll (liver pigmented)

White and Gold-
kk/B-/Ay-/C-/tt/E-/spsp/L-
kk/bb/Ay-/C-/tt/E-/spsp/L- (liver pigmented)

White and Gold Long Coat-
kk/B-/Ay-/C-/tt/E-/spsp/ll
kk/bb/Ay-/C-/tt/E-/spsp/ll (liver pigmented)

Gold and White Ticked-
kk/B-/Ay-/C-/T-/E-/(sisi,sisp)/L-
kk/bb/Ay-/C-/T-/E-/(sisi,sisp)/L- (liver pigmented)

Gold and White Ticked Long Coat-
kk/B-/Ay-/C-/T-/E-/(sisi,sisp)/ll
kk/bb/Ay-/C-/T-/E-/(sisi,sisp)/ll (liver pigmented)

White and Gold Ticked-
kk/B-/Ay-/C-/T-/E-/spsp/L-
kk/bb/Ay-/C-/T-/E-/spsp/L- (liver pigmented)

White and Gold Ticked Long Coat-
kk/B-/Ay-/C-/T-/E-/spsp/ll
kk/bb/Ay-/C-/T-/E-/spsp/ll (liver pigmented)

Sand-
kk/B-/Ay-/chch/(TT,Tt,tt)/E-/S-/L-
kk/bb/Ay-/chch/(TT,Tt,tt)/E-/S-/L- (liver pigmented)

Sand Long Coat-
kk/B-/Ay-/chch/(TT,Tt,tt)/E-/S-/ll
kk/bb/Ay-/chch/(TT,Tt,tt)/E-/S-/ll (liver pigmented)

Sand and White-
kk/B-/Ay-/chch/tt/E-/(sisi,sisp)/L-
kk/bb/Ay-/chch/tt/E-/(sisi,sisp)/L- (liver pigmented)

Sand and White Long Coat-
kk/B-/Ay-/chch/tt/E-/(sisi,sisp)/ll
kk/bb/Ay-/chch/tt/E-/(sisi,sisp)/ll (liver pigmented)

White and Sand-
kk/B-/Ay-/chch/tt/E-/spsp/L-
kk/bb/Ay-/chch/tt/E-/spsp/L- (liver pigmented)

White and Sand Long Coat-
kk/B-/Ay-/chch/tt/E-/spsp/ll
kk/bb/Ay-/chch/tt/E-/spsp/ll (liver pigmented)

Sand and White Ticked-
kk/B-/Ay-/chch/T-/E-/(sisi,sisp)/L-
kk/bb/Ay-/chch/T-/E-/(sisi,sisp)/L- (liver pigmented)

Sand and White Ticked Long Coat-
kk/B-/Ay-/chch/T-/E-/(sisi,sisp)/ll
kk/bb/Ay-/chch/T-/E-/(sisi,sisp)/ll (liver pigmented)

White and Sand Ticked-
kk/B-/Ay-/chch/T-/E-/spsp/L-
kk/bb/Ay-/chch/T-/E-/spsp/L- (liver pigmented)

White and Sand Ticked Long Coat-
kk/B-/Ay-/chch/T-/E-/spsp/ll
kk/bb/Ay-/chch/T-/E-/spsp/ll (liver pigmented)

Black and Tan-
kk/B-/atat/(CC,Cch,chch)/(TT, Tt, tt)/E-/S-/L-

Black and Tan Long Coat-
kk/B-/atat/(CC,Cch,chch)/(TT, Tt, tt)/E-/S-/ll

Black Tricolor
kk/B-/atat/(CC,Cch,chch)/tt/E-/(sisi,sisp)/L-

Black Tricolor Long Coat-
kk/B-/atat/(CC,Cch,chch)/tt/E-/(sisi,sisp)/ll

White, Black and Tan-
Black Tricolor
kk/B-/atat/(CC,Cch,chch)/tt/E-/spsp/L-

White, Black, and Tan Long Coat-
kk/B-/atat/(CC,Cch,chch)/tt/E-/spsp/ll

Black Tricolor Ticked
kk/B-/atat/(CC,Cch,chch)/T-/E-/(sisi,sisp)/L-

Black Tricolor Ticked Long Coat-
kk/B-/atat/(CC,Cch,chch)/T-/E-/(sisi,sisp)/ll

White, Black and Tan Ticked-
kk/B-/atat/(CC,Cch,chch)/T-/E-/spsp/L-

White, Black, and Tan Ticked Long Coat-
kk/B-/atat/(CC,Cch,chch)/T-/E-/spsp/ll

Liver and Tan-
kk/bb/atat/(CC,Cch,chch)/(TT, Tt, tt)/E-/S-/L-

Liver and Tan Long Coat-
kk/bb/atat/(CC,Cch,chch)/(TT, Tt, tt)/E-/S-/ll

Liver Tricolor
kk/bb/atat/(CC,Cch,chch)/tt/E-/(sisi,sisp)/L-

Liver Tricolor Long Coat-
kk/bb/atat/(CC,Cch,chch)/tt/E-/(sisi,sisp)/ll

White, Liver and Tan-
kk/bb/atat/(CC,Cch,chch)/tt/E-/spsp/L-

White, Liver, and Tan Long Coat-
kk/bb/atat/(CC,Cch,chch)/tt/E-/spsp/ll

Liver Tricolor Ticked
kk/bb/atat/(CC,Cch,chch)/T-/E-/(sisi,sisp)/L-

Liver Tricolor Ticked Long Coat-
kk/bb/atat/(CC,Cch,chch)/T-/E-/(sisi,sisp)/ll

White, Liver and Tan Ticked-
kk/bb/atat/(CC,Cch,chch)/T-/E-/spsp/L-

White, Liver, and Tan Ticked Long Coat-
kk/bb/atat/(CC,Cch,chch)/T-/E-/spsp/ll

Those are all the variations I could work out from the given Genetics page. I chose to use Cream and white for recessive red, and recessive red dilute, as per the sourced site.

I used Gold and sand for sable red and sable red dilute.

I did not add black masks because you didn't indicate that you wanted them, and they don't seem to play a huge role in the breed. I can add them if you wish.

In figuiring out your percentages, I know that long coat, black and tan, liver and tan, (and all livers) and ticking are rare.

Of those, long coat, B&T, and Liver are recessive, so you can just not assign them any percentage at all. The other colors will naturally carry for them so they will atrise from time to time when two carriers are bred.

Ticking is dominant, but can be carried hidden by solid dogs, so you don't need to start it either.

So colors that need percentages are-

Black
Black and White
White and Black

Gold
Gold and White
White and Gold

Sand
Sand and White
White and Sand

Cream
Cream and White
White and Cream

White

Gold - 10%
+ white - 10%
white + - 10%

Sand - 3%
+ white - 3%
white + - 3%

Cream - 3%
+ white - 1%
white + - 1%

White - 20%

Black - 10%
+ white - 10%
white + - 10%
white + ticked - 3%

Red - 1%
+ white - 1%
white + - 1%

grif,

You guys need to vote on which colour model to use then send the winner to Jeff.

grif,

Jeff is picking models up from breed forums now, so nothing needs to be formally submitted. Also, there's only one complete color model listed in this thread, so it would be hard to vote. Your is incomplete. If you want to work on it, I noticed you used liver (bb) as a basis for your red mutations, but in Canaans red is not caused by liver. Reds in Canaans are E locus or Ay. Liver does occur in Canaans (Fawx has a picture of one from the Louisville show) but they are rare, and a DQ in most countries.

It would however, be nice to hear from the breed communityabout what they want and don't want in their color model. -Neb

I don't really know much about colors, but if there's only one complete model we should run with it?

ETA: Didn't realize the last post was 2 months ago ...

Bump.

Let's put this where we can see it.

Bumping this so I can find the colour genes again

bump

Bump