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| Author | Topic : For BC Owners...Working Line vs. Show-line | |||
| Anchor Paws Canines Basic User Posts : 1,000+  |
I recently read an article that made me very angry. Basically, it was saying that show-line BCs are not "real" Border Collies. I highly oppose, being the owner of a show-line Border Collie, that is very smart, a hard worker, and only 10 monthe old.
They claimed that AKC's standards are not "true" to original Border Collies...I'm so offended. My BC pours her heart out for me...I have heard many people with this opinion. They say show-lines are not suitable for work...I say show bcs are just as smart and hard-working as Herding Lines. What's your opinion? ~APC  |
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| Seabrook Newfoundlands Basic User Posts : 33 |
Sorry, but show lines ARE different from working lines in BCs. They are built differently, have different temperaments and work differently. There have actually been studies done that prove that Australian show lines and American Working Lines are as genetically different as two entirely different breeds. That being said, show lines are perfectly capable of doing any performance sports you want. There are many successful agility and flyball dogs from Australian show lines. Working sheep is an entirely different matter. Just being able to chase sheep around a pen does not make a Border Collie. Getting an HIC is not a true test of a BC's working ability. I have watched many show and working line dogs at herding trials and there is such a significant difference between the working styles you wouldn't even think they were the "same breed". The thing you have to know is there is not just a two way split in Border Collies. There are many different types and styles and all have their pros and cons. Australian Show Lines- The most commonly seen type in the show ring. Bigger coats, denser bone and heavier set bodies. This type was developed in Australia and New Zealand and was never intended to be a working dog. British Show Lines- Lines developed from ISDS working bred dogs (ISDS is the English stock dog registry) and some early New Zealand show dogs. They are bred with a focus on dual purpose, and almost all English BC breeders like to introduce ISDS dogs fairly often in the pedigree to create a balance of working and show lines. British Working Lines- ISDS (International Stock Dog Society) is what is usually referred to as the English Working Dog Registry. These lines go back to the original Border Collies in fewer generations than any lines in the world. American Working Lines- Developed using ISDS imports, but bred to work American terrain. These dogs tend to be lighter and quicker than British dogs making them ideal for US stock work, which is quite different in climate and terrain. These are the type of BCs you will most often find in USBCHA trials and their main registry is the ABCA. Sport Lines- commonly referred to as "Sporter Collies". Bred for Agility and Flyball, and are therefor built differently to support the demands of frequent performance events. Very different from working collies in many ways, and not usually suitable for the show ring because of the way they are built. I have been involved with Border Collies for practically my entire life. I am not trying to be biased, but you just have to know that show lines are NOT the same as working lines. They are bred for different things and both have their place. |
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| TCrown Basic User Posts : 1,000+ |
Oh boy... You realize this thread could spark a huge argument? Im sure you likely do, but hopefully we can keep our opinions friendly anyways.I've only been active with BCs for the last year, so take me as a newbie, but the opinion in that article is not at all new from everything I've read and seen. From what I can tell the "working line" BC owners do not tend to look at a BC as a typically black & white, lean, athletic, lovable, quirky, opinionated, highly intelligent, somewhat independent dog. They don't see style or type or really put the image of a BC into a catagory. Have you seen the wide selection of different types of working BCs just in the US? Some look like the tradional BC, others like hyienas, some lots of eye, some no eye, some prick ears and others with rose(?) ears or close to it. Some are soft and others very hard. From what I can tell, they see a BC by it's true (not overly trained in other words) working ability. They don't see an all-around dog that will work in whatever sport you challenge it with, but they see the working abilities that have long been bred into them and sought for that allows for the BC to be good at most anything else. I think they just get slightly outraged with the thought that people might try breeding something that looks like their beloved BCs but has lost the traits that make them such good working stockdogs, something that can fetch a ball, chase a sheep, and trot happily around the ring, but not something that has that natural talent on reading, moving, judgeing, balancing, communicating, etc. I think that is where the anger sparks. If it weren't for the BCs speed and intensity then one could almost get a retriever to fetch a ball, chase a sheep, and trot happily around the ring, etc and they don't want their breed turned into retrievers for lack of a better example. Once I read someones opinion (and many others agreed) that if you want to breed your BC for something other then true working ability then why have a BC as that working ability is what makes it a BC. They were speaking of breeders breeding for the sport of agility, which is a passion of mine (the sport, not breeding). They thought that if you didn't have tsock or didn't want to work stock, etc and your dog excelled at the sport of agility or maybe just being a couch potator or whatever the plan you had for it then that was terrific! No problem, just don't then try to go and breed it to make puppies for that purpose because once you start looking at agility traits then you start looking away from the details of stockdog traits. If your dog was so incredible, then rather than going and breeding it for something other than it's original purpose, why not just get another dog that was just like it- all the traits you fell in love with that make a BC a BC? See, that's where I have a bit of a hard time with. I appreciate a BC for what it is (I have a "working bred" BC, though couldn't tell you how great its bloodline is since I don't know), but if there's a BC breeder who has been known to put out these aweosme agility dogs then wouldn't that just be even better? Well, I guess if I was looking for an agility bred dog that happened to be a BC then there wouldn't be a problem, but since a BC is looked at (by working breeders) by it's traits and not just it's type/breed then would I would technically be getting a dog that used to be all BC and now it's kind of a BC but a lot of something else too. I really couldn't tell you about the show line side. I do know that the working breeders that I've heard from think that once you start breeding for looks and not working ability (meaning mental capability of working stock) then you are again setting aside what a BC is. So long as their dogs are sound and show the ability to work stock like they were bred to do then they don't care how long there legs are or how well they crouch, etc. Why does that matter if the dog still can perform the tasks it was bred to do with exceptional talent? That's all I know. I'd be interested to see other peoples opinions but again, I hope we can agree to disagree if it comes down to that. TCrown PS When I speak of working breeders, show breeders, and certain bred dogs I realize that not every individual in those catagories fit into my description. I'm only saying what the majority seems to be from what I've seen/heard and come to a conclusion from. Obviously some working bred BCs don't make the cut, while some showline BCs will still have those exceptional traits, etc. |
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| Anchor Paws Canines Basic User Posts : 1,000+ |
this post has been edited 1 time(s) I don't want a fight, I just want honest opinions on the two different types BCs come in. I personallu prefer show-lines over working-lines, but i can see why some like working or performance better. The reason I mainly like show bcs better is they can be calm in a home, but still have bounds of energy outside, and our still highly intelligent and athletic I see both sides, and I am open to opinions! Just wondered why people think that working-lines are teh "only" true Border Collies. Show BCs still are very good, intelligent, and hard working dogs. |
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| Seabrook Newfoundlands Basic User Posts : 33 |
It depends on what you mean by "true". What I consider a "true" Border Collie is one who was bred to be successful at its original purpose. |
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| FallenStarz Basic User Posts : 2,000+ |
quoteAny well bred Border Collie should be like this. My working bred is exactly as you describe and my show bred is off the wall insane with little to no off switch at even 4(almost 5) years old. |
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| misty crazy Basic User Posts : 1,000+ |
this post has been edited 1 time(s) my opinion? lol I have stayed out of these posts on here for long time because most people know my opinion on that matter. as far as I am concerned they are different breeds, the only real BC is a working bred BC period. no exeptions. like fallen said, working BCs should NOT be crazy in the house, they are a breed meant to go non stop when needed and chill out calmly when not, I can leave my BCs at home all day and they will sleep all day..or I can take them out and they can go for 12 hours, neither phases them. |
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| of shadowfax Basic User Posts : 119 |
I have never owned a BC and I probably never will. Mainly because I don't plan to spend time herding with my dog. And I believe that a true Border should herd. With any breed you need to strive to find an outlet for their genetically pre-disposed needs. Yes, I am sure there are Border Collies that have no interest in herding just as there are Labs who don't care to retrieve or swim, greyhounds who don't care to chase after a lure. But these are not typical for their breed. |
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| griffin Basic User Posts : 3,000+ |
quoteReally? how do they know that? The number of generations is determined by the average age a dog is bred, so do British Working breeders breed much later than other breeders? |
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| griffin Basic User Posts : 3,000+ |
As to working vs show: Show people define a BC based on a set of physical traits laid out in the "standard" and Working people define a BC based on a set of qualities related to herding. There is almost 0 overlap between these definitions. Which is the "true BC" is debatable but in reality probably neither type is very similar to the founding BCs. Thus working and show breeders are breeding for different dogs. If there is not a lot of mixing of the lines they will overtime produce different breeds (and eventually different species) -> this is human-selection based evolution. grif, |
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| Anchor Paws Canines Basic User Posts : 1,000+ |
this post has been edited 3 time(s) quoteWell said!  An example of an excellent Show Border.  and the working/herding type as well.  Original Border Collie that ALL BCs can be traced back to. |
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| Dream Castle Kennels Basic User Posts : 1,000+ |
They are all "true" bc's,but like all pure breds,there are show and working lines.Bailey is as purebred as Uno,who I am a big fan of,but she comes from working lines rather then show lines.Different breeders breed for different things.Nearly all beagles will track to a certain extent just like all border collies show hearding desires.it's just the working lines have more instinct.I probly just repeated others who posted here,but show breeders probly don't want a bc that will try and heard the others,while working breeders want just that |
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| Seabrook Newfoundlands Basic User Posts : 33 |
Grif, yes working breeders often wait much longer to breed a bitch as the criteria for breeding is completely different for a show BC and a working BC. If you look at ISDS working BCs and the founders of the types (Wiston Cap type, Northumbrian Type, the Nap type and the Herdsman's Tommy type), working BCs for the most part are extremely close in style and type to their ancestors. The number of generations between current ISDS dogs and those founding dogs is what determines their closeness. |
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| Seabrook Newfoundlands Basic User Posts : 33 |
To illustrate my point-  Old Hemp born in 1894.  Eve, ISDS Register on Merit (but from UK show lines) Holding true to the Northumbrian style even though she was born over a hundred years after most of those dogs.  Wiston Cap, born in 1963  ISDS Import Bill, born in 2001. IMO he fits into the Wiston Cap type well, but could also fit well into the Herdsman Tommy type. A lovely working dog with a lot of style.  Whitehope Nap, born in 1951.  Astra Tweed, born 1997. Very similar in type to Nap. Tweed is an extremely accomplished sire and is a stylish worker with a lot of eye.  Tommy, ISDS 16- an Old Hemp Grandson. Date of Birth unknown (probably around 1910)  I had a bit of trouble with this one, as no dogs came to mind as being immediately this style, but this is a dog I found through the BC pedigree database named Jim of Londonderry (ISDS registered). He was born in 1997. There are still dogs out there that look like their ancestors. You just have to look for them. |
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| sscressa11 Basic User Posts : 500+ |
this post has been edited 2 time(s) The stlye you see in mondern Border Collies is from Wiston Cap. He is one of the most influential border collies sire. The last I heard they were onle 1 breeder around whos dogs/lines were NOT related to Wiston Cap but his last litter was in 90's. I am pretty sure I have said this before but... Why do people say or suggest that now-a-days border collies arent the same as the days of pass? or They aren't being bred for the same purpose? I guess for me I don't understand this romantic idealism we put on the "good old days" or the "days of old". The purpose of the border collie was to work livestock. If that is still the main goal for the breed and breeding purpose... ??? I guess in another term if the breeding purpose is still the same and they are still used in working livestock on a high level and even on a smaller level. Why do we claim they are a different breed then "the good old days"? They had flocked to Old Hemp because of his quiet demeanor and his ability to read stock so well. Also just throwing it out there... How many conformation border collie passed the basic HIT at their nationals last year? Didn't over half of them fail? That is just sad yet as long as they do well in the conformation ring they will be bred and pass on those ability to the next generation. The best way to prove your border collie is a "real" border collie is put it on sheep and see for yourself. Me personally, I see both sides of the story. And I know there are some supurb show breeder who try to breed for the best of the breed and have bred conformation border collie who have proven themselves at the highest levels. Also I know of some very bad ABCA breeder who are trying to breed away from the breed yet still claim they have border collies. ETA: Also remember to define: What do you consider working lines? -ABCA papers? -They come from a farm? -They trial in USBCHA? -They work livestock? How big is the herd they work? Also in response to Grif yes working breeder tend to wait for their dogs to prove themselves before breeding them. They dont have the luxury to know weither they dogs made the cut at an early age like the conformation breeder have. Conformation breeder are breeding to an ideal standard by 2 years old they can tell how their dogs conform to it. As long as the dog has a good X(head, front, rear, topline, etc..) good chance it will be breed even if it doesnt show well. A shepherd/farmer 1st need they dogs working ability and the dog to prove themsleves capable to handle the livestock(a good dog can replace i think 3 workers<- someone with more knowledge can correct that!), then when that dog gets older they will need a replacement. BTW I think I know what article you read. |
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| TCrown Basic User Posts : 1,000+ |
this post has been edited 1 time(s) Wow! Thanks for the pictures. I really like the looks of the Nuthumbrian type, but that's just going off looks. I don't have any true herding experience/training and know so little about it so I couldn't even begin to guess on how these types of working BCs differentiated from one another when it came to stock. I wish Tess' breeder would have handed over the papers he claimed to have had on her. Even if it was just the parents pedigrees. I LOVE researching and digging into pedigrees and I have absolutely no idea on what her lines are *sigh*. Well, actually, if I can believe anything her breeder told me then "her sire goes back to all the greats: Nap, Cap, Gator....". Hmmm. Never heard of Gator... I'll have to ask, but a friend of mine (who actually uses his BCs for stockwork) has a bitch that looks practically identical to the Nap type you posted. So very interesting! TCrown |
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| Seabrook Newfoundlands Basic User Posts : 33 |
quote |
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| Seabrook Newfoundlands Basic User Posts : 33 |
quoteThe Northumbrian type is my favorite too, they are very stylish workers. I love that dark style and almost mysterious appearance. |
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| griffin Basic User Posts : 3,000+ |
this post has been edited 1 time(s) quoteReasons why current working bred dogs are not the same as those gone past: 1) improvement: breeders always claim to be improving on the past which implies they are somehow different from the past dogs. 2) drift: random changes happen by chance some of which will be bred on either because of personal preference or changing fads, others will be bred-on because the dogs which carry them have some other outstanding trait the breeder wants to keep. 3) changing environment: climate change, changing crops/farming techniques, changing location create different demands on/from the dogs so the breed is modified to fill them. 4) changing requirements: different stock, different sized farms, new farm equipment able to replace particular herding dog functions, etc.. again create different demands on/from the dog so the breed will change to fill them. grif, |
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| flamincomet Basic User Posts : 500+ |
Of course border collies from the distant past aren't going to look exactly like modern border collies from every type of line in every different country. Border collies today even have a huge amount of variety in their looks, unless we are talking show BCs of course. IMO though if you look at working types they have changed very little (depending on what they are being bred for, cattle, sheep, flat fields, rolling hills, etc). The Show and Sporter Collie are very beautiful, and I'm sure have their own perks to owning them, but they are not the same, and I would not want to own one, again, because the show line I had was NOT something that should be repeated. You see, the problem is that hard core conformation people absolutely refuse to accept that dogs can be bred for a standard that does not focus almost entirely on appearance (or in BC's case, none at all! Just working ability, temperament, and health! :O ). I have gotten into battles with people before, "So you're saying if a chi can pass a USBCHA open course it is a BC? *scoff* A breed has to LOOK like a breed to BE the breed, otherwise how will you know it's the breed??" **Headdesk** Yes, of course a chi could win an open USBCHA trial, go ahead and try, I will be there laughing and trying to not shoot pop out of my nose in the mean time. Form FOLLOWS function. Working border collie lines are bred for working traits, specifically. Just because a BC from working lines doesn't turn out doesn't make it not a BC, anymore than a golden retriever from show lines not turning out would not be a golden retriever. "21 Border Collies and one Papillon were entered in the Herding Instinct Test at the 2011 Nationals, and only 12 passed. That is slightly more than half, but honestly it was disappointing. Herding Instinct Tests are extremely easy and the dog has to show a very minimal interest in sheep to pass." Did the Papillon pass? ^_^ Autumn |
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| kennelderossi Basic User Posts : 103 |
Same with American Show Line GSDs vs European working line GSDs. They are a completely different dog, period. No reason to argue over it. |
3/15/2012 4:47:58 PM
3/15/2012 5:40:02 PM|
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