Showdog.com Forum · Borzoi

Hi, everyone!

It's been forever since I was an active poster here, or really even an active breeder since I took a few years off. I don't know if anyone really remembers me, since I was seriously playing back in 2004. It's been interesting going back in the pedigrees and seeing my old dogs, even if they are way back there. It made me happy to know that the line I'd developed back then wasn't completely lost.

So, after a long hiatus, I'm back and I've decided on source breeding for colors now, which brings me to the reason for this post.

In trying to determine what colors I wanted to breed, I noticed that a few variations for silver was omitted, in one instance because the color wasn't factored into the model, and in the other, the code was lost somewhere in the transmission from forum to the email that finalized our color model.

The old model can be found here: www.showdog.com/login/breeds/philboard_read.aspx?id=110229

Unfortunately, I've since learned that our color model is incorrect in regards to the creams, the silvers, and the black and creams. To correct it and bring in the solid silver would mean a complete model overhaul which I'm not sure that anybody really wants and I don't know how to go about revamping it anyway.

However, I've emailed Jeff and he's more than willing to add the silver brindles to the model since we already have the code for it. In talking with Lilliput who has been extremely helpful in trying to figure out what went wrong with the silvers, she's brought up a very good point that adding this color code to the model will affect the colors of some dogs. However, it would NOT affect the underlying genetics or quality of the dogs at all.

Anyway... I guess this is basically a heads up that there is at least one color missing and for those of us who are color breeding, adding the missing silver brindles will give us one more color option to play with.

If Showdog had a like button I would press it ~

Now on a more serious note, I won't lie, I am sad that the solid silver won't be there. Truth be told I wouldn't be adverse to a complete overhaul if we could get a corrected genetics board. I don't know what Jeff would say to this idea, it would take a lot of effort I'm sure. Not as much as doing 181 breeds but still...... *weak chuckle*

I'm looking forward to seeing what others have to say.

Regards,
Sue

From the way it was explained to me, with the way the coding is now, the cream is actually silver just mislabeled. Or they're actually the same color? I think, I'm not entirely clear on it. Lilliput would need to explain just what it as, or I'd need to ask if I could copy and paste her explanations from the email here.

Unfortunately, in real life silver is most assuredly not a cream dog. Or at least it hasn't been in any silver borzoi that I've met to date. It's more of a Wiermaraner silver, with the metallic sheen. Varying shades of course, but still not a cream.

Personally I'd vote for a complete overhaul as well, assuming that everyone else was amendable to it. We'd also have to have help, since this is a project that I can't take on again. I tried the last time and ended up hopelessly lost. lol

It would be nice though to have the missing colors added... I hope that someone else will chime in with their thoughts as well.

Misty

Great idea! I have noticed that blue is completely absent from the model. Also, sable with black mask has never been seen in this breed. Maybe we could remove that one?

I've been reading up more on the colors and I think there might be some confusion as at least one color page mentions that the silvers have a cream base? I'm not sure how that factors in at all, or if it's considered a separate color altogether. Or perhaps the one website was just complete confused and in turn, confusing others as well.

Every time I've seen a silver, this is the color of the dog I've encountered:

www.sokolow.ch/news/images/MilovnaundSeraphRifferswil2010.jpg
www.sokolow.ch/news/images/RhapsodyinSilverFribourg2010crop.jpg
www.european-borzoi.de/veranstaltungen/veranstaltungsbilder/120825_rotterdam/1208258.jpg

We need to figure out just what all colors are missing from the model, and what others shouldn't be there at all.

Prypiat, do you know of others that should be included as well other than the blues? And are there any others that should be taken out?

Thank you for the help!

Those are the same color silvers I had thought everyone was referring to when the original color chart was being talked about. I'm glad you found some photos. I think it's easier to have everyone on the same page with visual examples then just a word. Good job finding those pics.

Regards,
Sue

I'm always up for finding pictures of lovely dogs. I've often considered going to the Banner Maker forum to request a banner but, I'd want the silver brindles in it and unfortunately I double that would be likely to happen given how hard it is to find examples of the color. Add into it that they're all copyrighted and there we go... it makes me extremely happy that for my other kennel I actually own the breed and I can use my own pictures. I just have to get around to actually doing so.

Back to the matter at hand though, I'm not sure if there's any other colors in question but if there are, I'll do what I can to find picture examples of them.

Misty

Can you find a picture of a solid silver? Those silver brindles do indeed have a cream base, and their black is diluted to silver from the same dilution that makes cream I believe. I'd need to see a few solid silvers to get an idea of what exactly that means in this breed.

I'm putting my google-fu techniques to use and so far I haven't come up with much. However I did find these few pictures, I don't know how much help they will be.

Here is a male they list as a silver spotted and white:
starswift.net/index.php?p=1_19_Earendel



And then here are a couple of pictures that don't have a color listed but the colors are comparable to the male above:

www.highgardenborzoi.com/valor.html

I hope this is of some help. I'll keep looking and post anything I end up running across.

Those look like dd blues to me. Which, in some breeds is indeed called silver, particularly because the intensity of blue can vary- from nearly black, to very pale blue. Unfortunately the gene that controls the intensity of blue isn't yet known I don't believe.

But from those pictures, coupled with the brindles, I'd make a guess that blue and silver are the same genetic color here.

Do you know, are the pups born that color, or do they become silver over time?

I will admit in searching out pictures, I do not believe I have ever been so confused in my life. There's dogs listed as silvers, as blues, as chinchillas, and then we get into colors such as blue fawn and blue fawn brindle. I've seen pictures of dark puppies that lighten, and light puppies that darken. And in looking through the forums where color is discussed, the one thing that everyone seems to agree on is that a borzoi's color is always changing. lol

But I bring pictures... for comparison purposes. I think you might be right about them being the same gene. I'm not sure how we'd work in the unknown gene for the varying shades, if it's even possible on the model?

Adult blue male:
www.mielikkishunt.com/litters/storms/frankie.htm

Adult blue male (color according to his listing on The Borzoi Files website):
borzoi.com/odinn.html" target="_blank">www.gladkiiveterborzoi.com/odinn.html
borzoi/4657426854/in/photostream" target="_blank">www.flickr.com/photos/afanasii_borzoi/4657426854/in/photostream

Adult Blue Male:
borzoi.shawwebspace.ca/asset/view/4150/preview_blue050408.jpg/" target="_blank">elanceborzoi.shawwebspace.ca/asset/view/4150/preview_blue050408.jpg/

And puppy pictures. It was extremely difficult to find (what appears to be) a silver puppy from birth on up, but here he is:

magnusborzoj.jalbum.net/Galeria/Szczeniaki%20-%20Puppies/Miot%20N%20-%20Litter%20N/Nousha%20Magnus%20Borzoj/index.html

The same dog, grown:
lh3.ggpht.com/-cR37a8neNHg/TJTzDbNtlKI/AAAAAAAAD5o/LH6oAodn-yI/Nousha.jpg


And just to further confound the issue, this is a chinchilla, that carries blue:

www.mielikkishunt.com/grins.htm

It seems to me that the color labels are more colloquial than genetic. Blue and silver seem to be fairly interchangeable. This is actuallly seen in a lot of dogs breeds, where there are several names for the same color, or the color differences are really more a judgement call.

I would not bother with coding for shades of blue. It's not really relevant, and only makes things complicated where they don't need to be.

I would pick a name- either blue or silver, and stick to that, than just add in D locus coding.

However, this would require an overhaul of the WHOLE model. Everyone's colors would change, any color breeding up to this point would be lost. And, when Jeff originally put up models, he basically said, make sure this is what you want, because he probably wouldn't change them, barring mistakes. Ie- he wouldn't be adding or removing colors later. Since blue was specifcally discussed, then discarded in the original conversation, I have a feeling it would be a no go.

You can ask him and see if he will if you like. AND if he will, you'd need breed support for it, as it would effect everyone. You might, however, just have to live with the colors you currently have.

Lilliput, your explanations are very informative, thank you.

The solid silver was supposed to be added into the genetic model, I'm still not sure why it wasn't. I wish that had been noticed when we submitted the model to Jeff.

If I am understanding your post correctly, a mistake was indeed made made when the silver came from orwas the same as the cream. Am I understanding this correctly? If I am understanding this correctly then it is an error that I would like to see corrected.

If that isn't that big of an issue to the other breeders ok, but I would like to see the coding for the silver brindle that was submitted to Jeff the first time added in as it was submitted and somehow didn't make it into the game.

Regards,
Sue

This whole thing is going to be a massive undertaking assuming we continue forward with it and I'm going to randomly pick a starting point here.

I'm willing to email Jeff again and ask if he'd be willing to change the model under the provision that we get everyone else on board with it. But doing both of those things is pointless if we don't have someone willing to help redo the color model since there's so many issues.

Lilliput, if I can get Jeff's approval, and get a general consensus from the rest of the breeders, would you be willing to help redo the color model for us? I know it's a lot of work to take on... I'll do what I can to compensate you in the form of payouts, specialties, etc if you're willing to take on the project.

If you're willing, I'll send out an email to Jeff and get the ball rolling to see what he thinks of the idea. He said he was willing to add in the missing silver brindles and the solid silvers if we came up with the coding for it. Perhaps he'll accept the new model if the other breeders are on board. It's worth a shot.

From there, it would be a matter of emailing everyone and getting them to add in their opinions. I'd posted over on the hound forum, asking the breeders to come in but so far it seems not to have worked.

Misty

quote

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posted by Uriel
Lilliput, your explanations are very informative, thank you.

If I am understanding your post correctly, a mistake was indeed made made when the silver came from orwas the same as the cream. Am I understanding this correctly? If I am understanding this correctly then it is an error that I would like to see corrected.

If that isn't that big of an issue to the other breeders ok, but I would like to see the coding for the silver brindle that was submitted to Jeff the first time added in as it was submitted and somehow didn't make it into the game.

Regards,
Sue

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I'm not sure it was a mistake, so much as the user who did your code tried to fit everything in in a "good enough" manner, rather than an accurate manner. The problem with that is that the code ceases to be logical, and it's easy to miss colors.

Adding the silver brindles shouldn't be an issue at all, since they were in the original code. Without an overhaul though, they'll just be added as they were originally coded.

IF you want an overhaul, AND Jeff agrees, AND you have breed support, I will do it for you. You already have a good basic outline as to what colors you want and what genes are at play, it wouldn't be too difficult for me to get it back on track for you.

Thank you again Lilliput for your input

It makes me rather sad to think that the code might have been done in a "good enough" manner. I also remember how hectic it was for all the breeds trying to get their color models done.

I personally don't have the time or energy that would be required to affect a complete code make-over. I can't speak for Black Cloud, if she wants to do it then she will have my support in whatever I can help with.

Lilliput, I thank you for your time and expertise in explaining all this to me. Truly I consider you one of the nicest and most helpful players here on Showdog.

Merry Christmas and happy holidays everyone

Regards,
Sue