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Author Topic : Looking for Black
 Arden_Farms
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4/22/2009 7:56:11 AM reply with quote send message to Arden_Farms Object to Post   

I have many nice dogs I would be intrested in trading for Black, Black and White, Brindel, Liver, Blue..... but MAINLY Black dogs...

I do not care about the SOP, I can raise the SOP in just a few GEN. But I really would perfer Black and Black and White dogs...

anyone?
 Arden_Farms
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4/24/2009 9:31:53 AM reply with quote send message to Arden_Farms Object to Post

BTW- my Liver and White is not included right now for trade. I'd like to get a litter or two first
 Friends and Family
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4/25/2009 3:19:07 AM reply with quote send message to Friends and Family Object to Post

I believe the suggestion right now is that we not breed for colour, because there's an error in the breeding engine and when it's fixed the colours we have might change (since they'll have to be recalculated from source). That said, when it is corrected, I have a black and white boy that I will happily put up for stud for you - if he's still black and white! If you're willing to take the risk and want to breed to him now (tomorrow, actually - he's 29 days old), I'll put him up at $25, but I'd rather not until we know what colours they really are...I don't want to rip you off happy :)

Sionel
 Arden_Farms
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4/26/2009 8:42:18 PM reply with quote send message to Arden_Farms Object to Post

Hounestly and this is just my opinuion. I dont think there really is an error. I just think after breeding some 45 plus generations of dogs without knowing what color they are or were we've unknowingly bred down or out colors.

When the discussion about what our color percentages should be came up I was very clear that from a genetic standpoint we should have more black and whites than gold and whites. This became so much of a controversy that a vote was issued. It ended in gold and white being the pick because the popular intrest at that time was for gold and white dogs. I will say to the postive that it was a VERY close vote becuase we do have so many well educated breeders in our mist but regardless it caused a shift in the overall calculations to lean more towards gold and white as a statistically dominant charicter.

However from a purely genetic standpoint (preference aside) black is a dominant gene and therefor should have been listed at a higher percent.

I am sure that your source kennel has such a varity because they are so close to the acctual source dogs. Where as many of our other long time players breeding primarily for SOP and with many generations of unknown color behind them are now producing those main colors only... the red and white, gold and white, silver and white, Etc.

I acctually remember reading in one of your other posts about color that you felt that the calculations must be incorrect because of the fact we have so many silver and white dogs. That to my understanding is most likely not a mistake. When we have set a dulute color as our primary "dominant" gene we will have more dulute outcomes over all... Hence the disposition towards silver. The black has been duluted by the "dominant" gold factor.

I have gone back many times and extensively reseached pedigrees and over all if you follow to chain of dog to dog you will find that the colors that are dominant now are so because there ancestors where of simular colors. Thats not to say thier parants or grandparents and so on didn't have siblings of other colors it just happened that the other colored dogs tended to have less disirable traits or lower over all SOP and where forever homed or sold to basics, never bred or minimally bred and where over all lost to the game.

I'll give an example within my own kennel. All of my dogs now except one are dominantly Gold and white, Red, Red and White and Silver and White. However when I started this line I origonally searched back threw pedigrees hoping to revive some of the blood lines lost during "the great crash" we had awhile back. Essentially I serched until I found a stud from a very old bloodline to re establish my kennel. This particular dog is now known to have been "blue" I went threw my list of dogs who had been sold and found abandoned in a kennel one of his grandaugters. She was only maybe 3 gen off of him and happened to be a fairly nice liver and white.

The reason for this story is to illistrate that the dogs I have now that where bred for SOP are golds and reds because they are inner bred with dogs with far larger generation gaps. Where as the liver and white is closer to an older generation which makes her a now "rare" color.

Jeff has made the statment time and time again that ONLY the SOURCE dogs would be calculated in the algorythum for genetics. This is why I was so strongly intrested in plushing for a more genetically correct percent.

This also illistrates why after many generations of "blind" color breeding we are now limited.

I belive if we could get Jeffs opinuion here he would probably concur. However, I may be wrong. If anyone acctually gets a responce from Jeff on our color issue I would very much like to know.


 Friends and Family
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4/27/2009 9:38:38 AM reply with quote send message to Friends and Family Object to Post

Sorry, I think there must be a misunderstanding as to what I posted earlier. It's not to do with numbers of colours at all - I agree that the reason some colours are rare in late generations is that they've been bred out, and that I still have them because my gen is early and I got lucky with my starters and my breeding since (crossing fingers - I haven't seen a sable for two generations, hoping I haven't lost the ays!).

The reason I feel there's an error (and Marchen agrees) is that I have had silver and white puppies (which *cannot* have ee on the E locus) born to combinations of red(/white) and gold(/white) parents - both of which *must* have ee on the E locus. This is according to the genetics which were posted as the final set on Marchen's website and were submitted to Jeff to use in the engine. Obviously two dogs both of whom must be ee can only pass on e genes to their puppies, and therefore puppies from those litters should only be colours which allow ee (you know this already I'm sure). Since ee is the only combination NOT included in E locus possibilities for silver and white dogs, silver should not be a possibility for pups of red and gold parents and so there must be an error somewhere.

Like I said above, I'll put my black and white up for stud if you would really like, and hopefully since the E locus isn't crucial in blacks, any fixes wouldn't affect him - but there is the consideration that they might, and therefore affect his pups' colours.


Sionel
 Arden_Farms
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4/27/2009 2:21:11 PM reply with quote send message to Arden_Farms Object to Post

How are recessive genes factored then?

 Arden_Farms
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4/27/2009 2:52:15 PM reply with quote send message to Arden_Farms Object to Post

I have a phenotype calclation program. I'm going to test this out and see what i come up with....


 Arden_Farms
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4/27/2009 3:31:23 PM reply with quote send message to Arden_Farms Object to Post

AyAy Ccch ee BB DD GG sisi creates a Red & White Graying (black nosed)(Blenheim) carrying chinchilla

And are you figuring Gold as a Dilute Red?
AyAy Ccch ee BB dd gg sisi gives me Dilute Red & White (black nosed) carrying chinchilla

The generator I use didnt seem to be able to give me a phenotype pridiction based just off the information provided

I did notice going threw the model that the Graying factor is in almost every single one of the lines done so I would think that would make it seem plausible that gray would be a ressesive gene....

E as a single gene alone dosen't hold strictly to color and even "ee" with other factors could be varied I'm sure

 Arden_Farms
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4/27/2009 3:44:27 PM reply with quote send message to Arden_Farms Object to Post

Also.. I overlooked the statment a min ago but E and e are factors in the Gray genes... as they are in the Blue (which is a variation of gray) and Black
 Arden_Farms
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4/27/2009 3:56:00 PM reply with quote send message to Arden_Farms Object to Post

And also...

You say the parents where gold/white and red/white... what about the grandparents? great grandparents and so on...

My son for example has hazel eyes. My ex husand, his father, has brown eyes. I have brown eyes. My son however inherited the ressesive hazel... it wasn't from his imediate parents directly but from past genes...

I've also seen examples of families where parents have both had brown hair and had multipal children all with disticly diffrent hair colors... one brown of course but another blond and another red...
 Friends and Family
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4/27/2009 9:17:47 PM reply with quote send message to Friends and Family Object to Post

If you look at the colour notes and the algorithm on Marchen's website (link is on the Colors thread) you'll see that the way we do inheritance here is that any given dog has two genes on each locus (ie two letters of each type) and passes one of those genes on to each of its puppies. This is a simplified version of real life, of course, not the way things actually work (although in actual fact it is still true that if you breed a real dog, it can't pass on any genes it doesn't have itself, regardless of what genes its grandparents etc have. Having a gene is of course different from showing it - so if a dog has a single recessive gene from a grandparent it can pass it on, whereas if it doesn't have that gene at all it doesn't matter whether its parents did or not, it still can't pass it down).

So if you breed two dogs to each other who are both ee on the E locus, the only genes on the E locus they can possibly pass to their puppies are e genes - since that's all they have. This means the puppies will all be ee, which isn't possible for silver dogs who, according to our breeding list, *must* all have at least one E or ebr gene in the mix.
 Marchen Shih Tzus
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4/28/2009 10:29:40 PM reply with quote send message to Marchen Shih Tzus Object to Post

Due to the simplicity of the model for purposes of this game, it can only factor in the parents' genes. So even if the grandparents were silver, it wouldn't matter. Two "ee" parents cannot produce a dominant "EE" or "Ee". Now technically it could be the other way around, the silvers could have produced reds or golds because the dominant could carry or "hide" the recessive gene. However, it cannot happen the other way around. The error does not seem to be in the model. It is happening within the program. I don't know if a color was inputted wrong from the model or if the genetic engine is not passing down the colors correctly. The fact of the matter is, our colors will be reassigned and passed back down the generations.

On a happier note, the dogs that are rare colors, such as black/brindle/blue/etc. will likely still be a rare color as they were evidently part of different "branches" of the family trees and if they were rare colors this time around, they will probably be rare colors the next time. They just may not be the same rare color. This is not a guarantee, as the starter dog could end up being assigned a "common" color the next time around. However, you have a better chance of those dogs that are rare now, being rare the next time around. I have two pups for sale from a black and white that you can buy. Just remember, it is not a guarantee that they will be a rare color the next time around.
 gaylanstudio
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10/9/2020 12:08:38 AM reply with quote send message to gaylanstudio Object to Post

Here is another

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