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Showdog.com Forum · Agility Forum

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Author Topic : What do you want to see in agility?
 admin
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12/14/2011 8:26:22 AM reply with quote send message to admin Object to Post   

I'm all ears on it.
 MagicWolf
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12/14/2011 10:18:03 AM reply with quote send message to MagicWolf Object to Post

That will be easier to answer once we see it run. Couple of questions though.

- How is it decided if a dog goes into Novice A or B for agility?
- Will agility eventually get its own link at the top of the show results page? It was kind of weird that I had to click obedience to see my agility trial entries.
- How will it determine the winner? Assuming there will at some point be agility sessioning involved like there is for obedience. But then once dogs are fully sessioned, how is it determined? Will handler/kennel sessioning ever figure into it (considering real life agility is very much about how well the dog is handled and strategy chosen, etc).
- It doesn't appear to be split by height class like real agility is. Would certain breeds just be assigned to certain heights or would dog height become another trait? (for example some border collies would fall into 20" class and some into 24" class?)
 admin
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12/14/2011 10:31:24 AM reply with quote send message to admin Object to Post

I guess I should have said what would your desired answers be?

It's really a blank slate and any input will have a large impact on the final product.
 Riverlynn
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12/14/2011 10:43:43 AM reply with quote send message to Riverlynn Object to Post

I wonder if there would be a way to incorporate the handler/dog relationship...or would that be too complicated?


~Riverlynn

 Lime Light Kennel
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12/14/2011 10:52:51 AM reply with quote send message to Lime Light Kennel Object to Post

i'm curious, for the agility competitions will the dogs need to be fully sessioned in the obediance traits to compete? or will for the mmoment the normal show traits be enough

becky
 Studio Dogs
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12/14/2011 11:01:23 AM reply with quote send message to Studio Dogs Object to Post

Sessions...what to do about sessions?
Can you increase them?

Can we have the smaller run of weaves and jumps

Or tunnels?

 Pendragon
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12/14/2011 11:11:06 AM reply with quote send message to Pendragon Object to Post

re: sessioning -
There needs to be seperate items similiar to obedience such as contacts, weaves, jumping, stays (start line and table) and then something for handling. Maybe 'basic' and 'advanced' or just something that will continue to increase with the thought that you could still Q without it be fully sessioned.

Also, there should be things that we could start with a pup but have to wait til they are a certain age for others (such as jumping exercises).

And can we incorporate in some way what will be a poor agility dog as compared to a good by way of structure? Those with poor front, Hind, and TNB being the porer jumpers as compared to those with high stats in those areas being the better prospect.

Sally
 OtterTail
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12/14/2011 11:12:35 AM reply with quote send message to OtterTail Object to Post

Hi Jeff,
Thanks for adding agility to showdog. I think it will be a hit. It is hard to know what dog your entered in agility. Is it possible to show the dog as entered...in the enter your dog function...as it is in conformation shows. This would simplify when you would like to enter a large # of dogs into agility.
 Lime Light Kennel
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12/14/2011 11:13:59 AM reply with quote send message to Lime Light Kennel Object to Post

I like the idea of the trait thing pendragon, because then it would give me a venue for on of my trait project girls who has too poor of ss to compete in conformation to possibly excell at agility.
 gaylanstudio8
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12/14/2011 11:16:15 AM reply with quote send message to gaylanstudio8 Object to Post

this post has been edited 4 time(s)

Is there something up on agility? I can't see anything yet.

I don't do agility but do watch it. Is it not by far usually an owner-handled thing?

Would people want "handlers"? I would think not.

On handler/dog relationship, perhaps a length of ownership could/should be a factor. If a dog is sold, you might see a short term setback?

Regarding standard obedience, should a requirement be a CD? Or should we just have some basic obedience - "come/stay" sort of thing in addition to the specific agility exercises? I would think a reliable come/stay would be essential.

I would think that conformation should be a factor - perhaps temperament, showshine? To what degree??? Just a thought for discussion.

Picking up a thought from HunnyBunny - would handler skill/experience be a factor. The dogs take cues from their handler and handlers make errors. Another thought for discussion.


 FunnyHunnyBunny
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12/14/2011 11:28:19 AM reply with quote send message to FunnyHunnyBunny Object to Post

I am not sure why the handleing ablility should inculance agility as it also should also affect obedience and it doesn't... I don't think that obedience stats should have to be sessioned as they are two different skill sets... Also I don't see how there should be an age problem with training or we need to change obedience as they also train for jumps... I don't have an opinion one way or the other on traits influencing performance; I do think that the different breeds should go into the aproprite jump hight catagories and their size trait should help detirmine the individual dogs size... Just my two cents take them for what they are worth!
 FunnyHunnyBunny
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12/14/2011 11:28:20 AM reply with quote send message to FunnyHunnyBunny Object to Post

this post has been edited 1 time(s)

Double post...
 FunnyHunnyBunny
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12/14/2011 11:30:52 AM reply with quote send message to FunnyHunnyBunny Object to Post

P.S. I think that there should be Jumps and Weaves classes as well...
 Castleberry
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12/14/2011 12:26:54 PM reply with quote send message to Castleberry Object to Post

If the game were mine to design?

1) I would take this opportunity to add an additional set of traits to the dogs. These would be "performance traits"
(At one point these were discussed under another topic) - I think you would have something like -Intelligence, Trainability, Drive, etc

then another area that deals with the physical aspects of performance - things like - flexibility, stamina, speed, etc

I think you want to add traits that can be used to determine placement in a number of different events - agility, herding, field trials, lure coursing, tracking, earthdog, etc. - so it would need some forethought

Different events would utilize different combinations of traits (like conformation puts different weight on different traits for different breeds)

2) These added performance traits would be combined with sessioning to determine winners in different events. Just like we use sessioning and genetic traits to determine winners in the conformation ring now.

Anyway, work is calling (unfortunately) - but that is a quick glance at how I envisioned the new events that I hope are going to be added one day.

 Gambit Great Danes
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12/14/2011 12:55:00 PM reply with quote send message to Gambit Great Danes Object to Post

To keep things simple I think the basics of what we need for agility currently is just more skills to session, just like how obedience is now. I know people will be against it but it takes a long time to train a dual performance dog in RL so it should be the same on the game.

I agree with adding skills like contacts, weaves, maybe front and rear cross, speed, etc.

Gambit
 Flowertree
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12/14/2011 1:50:19 PM reply with quote send message to Flowertree Object to Post

Problem with it taking so long is that you only have enough sessions for so many things as it stands now you cant afford to session for conformation and anything else at the same time.
wonder if extra sessions for just obedience and agility could be allowed in the same cost package as you have the 4 sessions per day and 8 etc. but add on separate to only be used for obedience and then agility also separate. ? Think that would put more people using those things.
plus it really is not too fair being dogs are only good to show for so long in the breeds that take longer to session by the time thier sessioned they have a very short show life left. Plus you cant get as many sessioned like some other breeds rather an unfair advantage. even in conformation. when poodles are ready to show in 14 days and some other breeds I have take 45 days. Doesnt quite make sense to me I realize they are harder to train however when showing in conformation by 6 months when they are ready to show that is plenty of time to have equal training on most any breed. and yet it is a whole month more on show dog?
On poodles the coat isnt ready by 6 months yet they are ready to show in 14 days or less? seems a bit backwards to me.
While an extra week might be ok a month is kind of hard when talking show dog time and whats left of thier showlife
 Jade Aussies
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12/14/2011 2:16:42 PM reply with quote send message to Jade Aussies Object to Post

I have never done Agility in RL so am clueless on how to do it, however I agree on some basic things.

I think Pendragons point that traits should be considered is a very valid one. The traits we have now can be used if the more advanced trait issue is a problem as in my opinion temperment would be a big factor for an agility dog due to trainability, also as Pendragon states certain traits would have a propensity to give a better performance, a bad moving dog isn't going to be able to move as quickly or cleverly I would assume, without a good hindend it wouldn't have the strength to take off in jumps, etc....just a thought from a breeders perspective of form to function.

I also like the idea about a different session for agility as frankly I will be left out of it as I use my max sessions for conformation in my primary kennels, but if we were given the opportunity to have a special agility session like we have with regular sessions I think it would open it up to everyone.

And yes it would be nice if we could have the results like the show results. I have done obedience in one kennel, one dog and it wasn't all that fun because the results just were not there easily to find. I did manage to get his UD just to do it, but haven't taken the time or effort to do anymore because of it not really adding anything to the game for me.

Again Jeff thanks for your spicing up the game once more happy :)
 ShootForTheMoon
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12/14/2011 2:17:48 PM reply with quote send message to ShootForTheMoon Object to Post

Training a dog for multiple events as well as conformation in real life takes up a lot of time, energy, and money. Why should it be any different here? It's the owner's prerogative whether or not they want to raise obedience, show, or agility dogs. If they can't spend the time and money, don't do it. If they can, then by all means, no one is stopping you.

As for secondary traits (drive, speed, etc.), but I'm not particular to the idea after playing games with those as well. I think adding too many events will take away from the main point of this site: showing dogs in conformation. That's what drives us to breed better dogs, right? The other sites I've been on with those secondary traits have conformation as a nice break or event, but not the main focus. That is the reason why I like this site (thus far), and joined to play.

I think that if we add sessionable stats for agility, which we should on my opinion, we should think about adding more sessions available to each player. I don't know how it would work, but it seems fair that if we add another event that requires sessions, we should add more sessions daily. However, that's just me.

~ShootForTheMoon
 FunnyHunnyBunny
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12/14/2011 2:51:04 PM reply with quote send message to FunnyHunnyBunny Object to Post

Possibly increse the amount that you can purchase in sessions so that basics have a chance to compete???
 MagicWolf
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12/14/2011 3:03:14 PM reply with quote send message to MagicWolf Object to Post

quote
posted by Castleberry
If the game were mine to design?

1) I would take this opportunity to add an additional set of traits to the dogs. These would be "performance traits"
(At one point these were discussed under another topic) - I think you would have something like -Intelligence, Trainability, Drive, etc

then another area that deals with the physical aspects of performance - things like - flexibility, stamina, speed, etc

I think you want to add traits that can be used to determine placement in a number of different events - agility, herding, field trials, lure coursing, tracking, earthdog, etc. - so it would need some forethought

Different events would utilize different combinations of traits (like conformation puts different weight on different traits for different breeds)

2) These added performance traits would be combined with sessioning to determine winners in different events. Just like we use sessioning and genetic traits to determine winners in the conformation ring now.

Anyway, work is calling (unfortunately) - but that is a quick glance at how I envisioned the new events that I hope are going to be added one day.


I really like this. It sounds very complicated for Jeff, but would be fantastic for kennels that might want to have an 'agility' line and a 'conformation' line of dogs - or try to do more of a versatility approach and breed for a good dog in both (makes it very hard in terms of breeding choices so would be a good challenge).

I could see it being something like when colors were added - a whole new world of breeding options for players that would put a new spark into the game. Maybe dog height could be one of the traits so a kennel might breed for smaller or larger in their breed in order to effect their height category. Although I guess you'd have to keep that consistent with size trait for the conformation traits.

I think if you don't do something like this it just turns into everyone fully sessions and then between the fully sessioned dogs it's sort of random who will win, which would make it sort of boring.

I REALLY like the idea of breeding for performance as an end in itself, not just an 'extra' add-on for something to enter like obedience is. I would love to add herding someday and have traits like 'power', 'balance' 'stock sense' 'biddability' 'eye', etc. Then different herding trials could have livestock with different traits (flighty, heavy, etc) so some dogs would be good on one kind of livestock and other dogs on a different kind of livestock. Like a dog without power wouldn't do well on heavy stock.
 MagicWolf
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12/14/2011 3:11:56 PM reply with quote send message to MagicWolf Object to Post

If others feel the main focus of the game should be conformation, maybe Jeff needs a new game 'AgilityDog.com' and 'HerdingDog.com' and 'RetrieverTrial.com' and so on. Could all be modeled closely after Showdog (to avoid too much extra work) but each would focus on different performance traits (basically just re-label the conformation traits as something performance-related). I wonder if there would be a way to link them - have the same dog available on all the dog games and pay an extra $5 or $10/year to add on the extra sites, with each site having its own sessions and competitions. You wouldn't want them totally separate otherwise you'd just be splitting your subscribers. I know, waaaaay complicated but just thinking for 'someday' down the road to keep in mind. 'Breeding better dogs' for some breds IS about performance and NOT conformation (like working bred border collies) and I think allowing a different focus to the breeding would appeal to more types of dog people.

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