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Hey I have a quick question for obedience people. I have never experienced this problem before so I'm really at a loss! I'm working with one of my dogs on his CD title. He quickly earned his beginner novice title. Our first show in novice he earned a 195.5 and 1st place in a big class! However lately he hasn't been very reliable on the recall exercise. I know he has a lot of potential so this is very frustrating. I will call him to come and he just sits there. Our second day in the novice ring (the day after he won his first leg) he would have earned another great score and another first place but for the recall he didn't come!

So my question is what would you guys do to fix this problem? We had a show today and he did this again. But when I practiced it later he did it fine. I just never know what he is going to do. We have another show in 2 weeks and I'm really hoping to fix this problem! I really appreciate any help and advice. Thank you

Most likely it is something you don't even know you are doing which is either signalling to him to sit or is causing him to be confused/stressed so he remains sitting.

Possible things:
1) stance & body posture : when I trained obedience I would often subconsciously stand very straight when I wanted him to sit but would bend forward slightly when recalling - I only noticed because she started occasionally sit before I said the word in the house.

2) Eye contact

3) Voice : often in trial situations nerves will cause your voice to change which can confuse the dog.

grif,

It's probably your body language. You're somehow telling him that you don't want him. Try getting video of yourself in practice and think about what you might be doing different--even something as simple as nerves making you stress can affect your facial expression and cause the dog to think "Nope, she's pissed."

Well I've had many people watch me including my trainer and no one seem to think it is my body language. Sometimes he comes and sometimes he doesn't. I honestly don't know why but I really want to know how I should go about fixing this problem.

Something that a friend did notice at yesterday's practice show was that when I was in the ring and I walked way from him during the recall he looked around a bit. Then when I turned around he was looking right at me. So I called him but he just sat there with a blank look on his face. Later when I practiced it again we figured out that when he looks around while I'm walking away and then looks back at me and I call him he doesn't come. However when he doesn't look around while I'm walking away and stays focused on me when I turn around and call him he comes. It's strange. Almost like he blanks out and isn't listening. Not sure how to fix this so that he will be reliable every time! Thanks again for any advice.

Do you use the same command for the long stay as for the stay-recall?

Could be that he is confusing the two exercises.

grif,

I agree with using two different commands for the stay and the recall. When doing the long sits and downs, I used the command "Stay", and when I was standing across from my dog, I would stand with my arms crossed, practically glaring at him lol (an Akita). For the recall, I would use the command "Wait" and stand with my arms at my sides and smile. If you think he's just losing focus during the recall, maybe he's bored. Try running / walking away quickly. Or try using treats when training, giving him the treat when he does the recall. Also, while you may not be giving any body signals that you or your observers are picking up, no doubt you "feel" different in training vs the real thing, and the dogs can definitely pick up on that.

I use stay for the stay exercises and wait for the recall.

You are right Zahir I'm sure I do 'feel' different during a trial than during training. However he has done this in both training and at trials. I will try to make it more interesting for him. Like you said maybe running or something to keep his attention while I'm moving away.

The main question I have is when he doesn't come on the first command what should I do? Go get him? My trainer always says don't call him again. Thanks!

Don't really have any suggestions to fix the problem immediately but I would say regarding how to react if he doesn't come when called I would certainly not get upset or strict in any way if he doesn't come... 1) that could teach him that "come" is associated with a negative outcome so why bother and/or 2) if he's at all sensitive he could start to feel "pressured" when presented with the come command and only stress more trying to get it right.

ETA: Based off what your instructor suggested, if he doesn't come the first time maybe go back to him and simply ignore the mistake, then try again later?... I'd actually suggest the opposite of what your instructor suggested which is to get really excited when calling him and just fade out the extra encouragement as he starts coming better. If he shows signs of not wanting to come until *after* you get excited then simply avoid practicing the not coming by instead *starting off* very excited and then slowly fading it out. But I'm a trick person and have no experience in the actual competitive obedience ring so my methods/thoughts may or may not be something you can use?

Regarding getting him to come more reliably, maybe try feeding him his meals only while working on "stay vs come" skills (at this point rarely rewarding the stay and super rewarding the come) ? If you can build excitement and enthusiasm for the come then that would also help him to maintain his focus better as you walk away (just waiting for the chance to come! ) . If he loses interest in the game put his meal up and be done until next meal time or simply later in the day... My BC really could care less about treats as rewards (would MUCH rather toys) however she goes spitting crazy over working for her meals and it built her food drive and her working enthusiasm greatly! Granted you might have to go back and polish up on your stay skills after you get that enthusiastic and reliable come but that's what training is all about... working with our dogs and sometimes taking a step back before we can take 2 forward

If you find any help with using his meals to help train the skills then try playing/feeding him at class or on the sidelines of class to start transferring it from a enthusiastic skill at home to an enthusiastic skill in the ring.


TCrown

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Last edited by TCrown on 4/8/2014 7:56:02 PM

On another note, if you somehow find that it's not so much an issue with the "come" as it might be with the "release" (from the stay, maybe due to confusion like others have suggested) then I'd practice driving out of a stay a lot (in agility we practice this a lot on the teeter... you must stay until it's time to release but then we want you to DRIVE out of it as quick as possible) . Maybe try having him get on the couch or in his crate and then when you give him his release word send him out to a target or toss a kibble out for him to chase after. As he starts anticipating the release start to fade tossing the kibble until *after* he has moved out of his stay position.


Just a thought

TCrown

Thank you so much for all of your great advice! I will try the techniques you suggested. I do not get upset with him when he doesn't come. He is a dog that always wants to please and I think he knows when he messes up. I just don't know how to fix it. When he does come on the first command I really praise him while he is coming.

I've never competed in Rally/Real Obedience (just 4-H shows), but I've gone to SEVERAL obedience classes from quite a few different trainers. No idea if this is even relevant to what you're needing, but I thought I'd post it anyway..

Regarding the wait vs stay, in our house "wait" means to stay behind a certain point(or in a certain area), but you're free to sit/stand/down. "Stay" means to stay in the position I put you in until I come and release you.

My Cavalier has this exact same problem every once in awhile. I figured out that she was confused by the long stays and recalls. So I started standing very straight and making eye contact as soon as I turn around to face her in the recall, as she associates this with "Ok, mom's gonna ask me to do something else soon!". This way, she's completely focused on me and not on anything else in the ring/outside. When I start a long stay, as soon as I face her I take up a "relaxed" position and don't make any eye contact, as she associates this with "looks like we're gonna be hear awhile".

Ever since I started doing this to distinguish the two, she has had a great come, and still never gets up from her stays. No idea if this will work at all with your dog, but I've had great success from it with 2-3 Cavs and my Aussie, so I thought I'd put it out there

~Shimmer

Hmm...that is a toughie, what to do if he doesn't come on the first command. I agree with first calling him very excitedly, and phase that out if he seems like he's getting it. You could also try shortening the distance of the recalls you are practicing, just go a few feet at first instead of the whole distance, and see if that makes any difference. If it does, then work at the short distance and gradually lengthen the distance, or even vary the distance to maybe help keep his interest. Also, maybe practice on lead a little at home, so you can encourage him with the leash to come to you on the first command. I had another question too, are you using hand signals when giving your voice command to stay or wait? If so, make sure you are using a different hand signal. For example, I used a closed hand / fingers together, for "stay", and an open hand/ fingers spread apart for "wait". For "stay" I brought my hand down right in front of the nose and held it there for a second. For "wait", I sort of waved it across the nose as I gave the command. lol - anything I could do to make the two as different as possible!

Anytime this happens we go back to what we call "puppy recalls", make the recall exciting again. We vary it a lot so as not to shape breaking a stay or anything.

Begin with someone just holding his collar, not in a stay just relaxed, standing or sitting, whatever he chooses. You RUN away, calling his name every few steps, as soon as you turn to face him the person lets go while you say his recall word. As soon as he gets to you, use your release word and "throw a party" toy, treats whatever he likes. (This is absolute basic, hense why we call it puppy recalls, if you think he will regress by not sitting front it's up to you! I still occasionally do these with my Open dog to keep it interesting! I release him between my legs with a tennis ball as he comes front, that way he can tell if my legs are together he's going to sit in front)

Sometimes leave him in an actual stay and do the same.

Every now and then don't release him and have him sit in front like normal before the "party", obviously working to that being more often.

If you're worried about this over exciting him and teaching him to break the stay, then occasionally leave him in a sit, and after you run away, run back and give him a treat, run away again and call him the second time.

We do this a lot with our dogs if they begin to slow on recalls, occasionally just before a trial I still do these "puppy" recalls with my open dog to remind him recalls are fun =)

I also walk away briskly in the ring so as to keep their attention.

Opps that last post was me, timed out!

Also if you're nervous, One of my first obedience dogs NQ'd on the recall twice because he was looking away, I was nervous, judge said "call your dog" and all in one breath I said Buzzfront! He heard his name but kind of looked at me like... "did you just call me? no? yes? I better not..."

I learned to take a breath first, then say "Buzzer. Front!" happy and loud! Giving him time to hear his name and the command and me to relax!

Thank you all so much! I will try what you all have mentioned. I use the wait command for the recall and the stay command for stay exercises. However I pretty much use the same hand signal for both. Not sure if I should change that. I will try working on shorter distances as well and make sure that he masters that. When he is on leash he always seems to come. It's just off leash that we occasionally have this issue. I just can't figure out if it's a matter of him not hearing me clearly, being confused as to what I what, or if he just simply is not listening because he's not focused. I always try to make eye contact with him before I call him and usually he is looking right at me with his ears alert. And then he will just sit there so I really can't figure it out lol! Thanks again everyone! Actually we have obedience class tonight so we'll see how it goes. The last several weeks he has done great with the recall but you never know I guess.

When I was training the drop-on-recall for obedience I had a different problem -> that my dog would anticipate the drop and started laying down instead of coming when I called. She also started coming tip-toeing really really slowly rather than running or even walking.

What worked really well for that (which might also help you recall problem) was to randomly either recall to front, recall-drop, or call followed by chasing me or chasing a thrown toy/treat. Usually we would start & end each session with a 1-2 call-chase and have ~3 call-drops and ~2 call-fronts in between. That kept an enthusiastic recall with no anticipating. (Actually made it a bit too enthusiastic because she started running so fast even putting on all the brakes she would still move several feet before being able to lie down lol .). You can also vary the distance you go and time you wait before calling him to keep it interesting and make sure he has to keep focused.

PS I would also start training him with a longline so that if he doesn't respond immediately to the first call you can reel him in. Returning to him sort of rewards the not-coming ( "Yay mom is back" ) which could be reinforcing the not-coming. If you don't/can't use a long line just release from the distance and ignore him.

grif,

ETA:
To clarify about the call-chase I would set it up exactly the same as the others, sit-wait.. I walk out then turn to face standing rigid.. but only after she got up out of the sit and started to run would I turn and start to run away from her or turn and throw the toy/treat, I would also vary when I turned as well sometimes it was immediately after she broke the wait sometimes it was when she was half or 3/4 of the way to me.

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Last edited by griffin on 4/9/2014 1:06:58 PM

Great thanks for that advice grif! I had the same problem when I was training the drop on recall with my other dog. She would go slow and then she wanted to automatically lay down when she got about halfway towards me lol. She anticipated it so much so like you said we have to mix it up with regular recalls too.

Yes I thought using a long line would be a good idea so that way I could correct him without going back.

Just wanted to let everyone know that my dog finished his CD title today!! He had a beautiful recall! Our score was 194 and a 2nd place in a big class of 16 dogs! Very proud of him.