.com Forum · Boston Terrier

Ok, well guys, I've tried to help sort out the problem and Lilliput has tried.

I agree that there is almost certainly some genetic cause for what you call black brindle. The problem is that there is no known reason for it.

Our assumption so far has been that seal is the result of K/ky or Kbr/ky, which would mean that two seals bred together will produce 1 non-seal, 2 seal, and 1 ky/ky which would be fawn. If you now propose that seal is not due to the incomplete dominance of the recessive k, based on a failure to produce the fawn then you also throw a monkey-wrench into the genetic nature of the seal colours.

Right now, I am inclined to say leave it as it is until something more is known because I do not have definitive answers to these questions.

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Edit: This is quite deep and I do not claim to fully understand it although I can grasp the essentials. It deals with Boxers primarily but certainly has some application toward Bostons. It's titled "Finding the Gene for Brindle" and dates to 2005.

www.steynmere.com/gene_brindle.html
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Well I would say your assumption is wrong because you cannot get a fawn from breeding seal to seal. The seal in bostons is not like the red in Dobies (where fawn/isabella) is possible.

You can see photos of a fawn on this page
www.boston-terriers.com/offcolored.htm


From what I have found seal is not found on the ky/ky locus it is for fawns,sables and black and tans.. none of these fit the seal color in bostons. I suspect seal is going to be black with a modifier which is why it appears black unless in sunlight.

If you will give me a day or two to ask some other breeders there opinions I will get back to you.

I am still waiting to hear from other boston breeders to see if they know the answer however in the meantime I have found this website

www.adbadog.com/uploads/pdf%20forms/colorgenetics.pdf

Which is about pitbulls but specifically mentions the color seal on the A series

(As) - DOMINANT BLACK: This allele produces uniform coverage of dark pigment over the
entire body. Its action is expressed in all dogs with black or brown coats. The (As) allele is
almost completely dominant over others in the A series. The black color ranges from pure black
to a black with a brownish cast (seal). Geneticists are uncertain if the allele is incapable to
produce pure black

The so called fawn or Isabella in Dobermans is the same as Boston lilac. It results from the combined action of the brown and blue dilutions (b/b,d/d). It is the normal state for Weimaranners.

Please do continue your research and let us know what you find out.

The As dominant black has been more or less dismissed. Current theory is that the A locus contains Ay (sable,fawn), at (tan points) and a recessive solid a - a/a is solid black. Perhaps a/a is the cause of the Boston black - just a personal guess.

Oops, sorry, I didn't scroll down far enough - I now see the fawns. The fawns in these are in fact fawns of the Boxer type - note the black masks. They are the same as the sable of a collie (some modification affecting the distribution of the dark "sableing" hairs. Incidentally, the mask is still assumed to be on the E locus.
Edit:
(The "fawn" in those pictures looks more like a brown/liver dilution (b/b) with the added influence of the C locus dilution - what the model we presented called red. They have brown/fleshy looking noses. The fawn we are talking about is the fawn more like that of a Boxer or Great Dane. This fawn has a different genetic cause to that of the yellow Labrador.)

Ok, that's all from me. I am going to try to avoid looking at this forum any more - it's just getting too involved for me. I wish you all luck in sorting this out.

quote

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posted by GaylanStudio7

Edit:
(The "fawn" in those pictures looks more like a brown/liver dilution (b/b) with the added influence of the C locus dilution - what the model we presented called red. They have brown/fleshy looking noses. The fawn we are talking about is the fawn more like that of a Boxer or Great Dane. This fawn has a different genetic cause to that of the yellow Labrador.)

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Well this is the black masked fawn is the only fawn present in the boston terrier breed, and my belief is that it is from a boston being bred a black masked fawn frenchie. And if I am not mistaken seal is not present in the boxer or the great dane.. so if fawn is the dilution of seal wouldnt these breeds have to have seal as well to get the fawn in the first place?

I'll do a little more research, the problem here is that you have two colors- seal and black brindle/brindle that there is not currently a known genetic cause for. The point about Danes is interesting, I'll look into it. Its possible that there are seal Danes but they are simply called "black". I believe seal occurs in breeds that simply do not recognize it seperately from black. Many breeds have different names for genetically identical colors, or the same names for genetically different colors (as you've seen with fawn- which can be ee, Ay, or bbdd depending on the breed) Most breeds on showdog chose to use a k locus dilution for seal, I'll see if it can be done a different way.

As far as the extent of brindle- black brindle vs brindle, its unknown if there's a genetic factor in the extent of brindling, or if its random. Merle, for instance, is another pattern- some dogs show extensive merling, and others have only tiny patches of it. Genetically, the extent of the merling pattern, like the extent of the brindling pattern appears to be random. Schmutz has the most up to date genetic info, here is what they say about brindling on their website-
"In some breeds the dogs are called red brindle or black brindle. The proportion of blackish stripes to reddish stripes varies among individuals, as illustrated by Whippets Ripley and Colors in the first row below, and Inkie, Joey, and Torch in the group photo. We are not yet certain if this is random or under genetic control."

It can be seen here- homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/brindle.html

This is all I can find on seal from Schmutz-
"In a few breeds some dogs are called "brown" or "liver" or "chocolate" and they are not a typical brown color. Such an atypical case is called "seal" in some breeds. The genes responsible for seal are yet unknown but such seal dogs would test B/B, and also have a KB allele and at least one E allele."
homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/dogbrown.html

I'll see what more I can find on the seal. One question that would be helpful to know the answer to-
When you breed seal to seal, what colors are produced? Ask them to include any non-standard colors that have been born, but may have been culled. Its important to know the answer to this to figure out how seal inherits. A large sampling across several breeders and many seal to seal breedings would be best.

When you breed black brindle to black brindle?

Black to Black?

When it comes to the black brindle and seal brindle issues I am content to just have the 4 colors black and white, seal and white, and black brindle and white and seal brindle and white. I think most of us are. The only hangup right now is the getting fawn from a seal to seal breeding which no one I have talked has ever seen occur.

Since I have been involved with the breed for several years and have quite a few mentors I can give you their and mine experience with seal to seal breeding, When you breed a seal to a seal.. well you can most definately get seal puppies... but a black brindle is likely to end up there are well.

Everyone I have talked to says they have never gotten a fawn puppy in a seal to seal breeding, and that the consensus of pups would be seal, seal brindle, black brindle in that order, Now I am sure there were some black and whites thrown in there but since true b&w is hard to comeby I doubt it was that often.

In recent years breeding seal to seal results in normal colored puppies to some degree or another,,, you know with varying shades and degrees of brindle they have never produced a fawn.

A friend of mine just bred her Ch Seal male to her Almost Ch Seal bitch and ended up with 4 nice puppies that look to be black brindle, 2 seal brindle and one seal.


When you breed a boston litter you are sort of waiting on a rainbow as you cannot predict what puppies you will get by the color of the parents. You can get seals in breeding black brindle to black brindle... or breeding black and white to black brindle, or any other variant. Basically any of the 4 AKC allowed colors can be produced in one boston litter no matter what the colors are

I have another story of a beautiful liitle seal heavy brindle bitch being bred to a black minimal brindle male and producing the most perfect PURE black and white little girl I have ever seen :P

Thats also what I've seen its like all boston's carry the same 4 color genes any of those 4 colors can when bred have any of those 4 colors I've seen many litters of sire and dam being black brindle and the litter had seal brindle, seal, black brindle and sometimes a black all with more or less white of course. I think that in the begining this breed was so inbred to get the small fighting dog that they were trying for that also caused the deformed piggy tail that some how all the boston's carry these 4 color genes I know its hard to believe but I have a feeling that this little dog has changed what everyone "knows" about color genetics and is doing something new. I have seen many boston litters small litters to litters of 8 puppies and no matter what the parents colors are you can get any of these 4 with the full brindle pattern included. I have a feeling thats why no genetic color code is around for this breed because it not like anyother breed of dog as far as how the colors pass from one to the next. So heres mt 2cents all bostons carry all these genes but 1 is just a little more dominate and thats the color that that dogs coat ends up being but it can produce all of these colors. So I think we just for the game need to make a color model with only these 4 colors that will work for the game because with out some science being done the mystery of the boston color genes will never be unlocked. So to fix our problem for the game we are basicly going to have to make up a color gene code that a computer can understand because the real thing is just to complicated and involved for what we need to use here. But I do encourage getting people to work on the mystery of this outside of the game. Good Luck

Hi I've recently brought a chocolate Boston bitch pup, her mom was black and dad was red, she had a mixture of siblings some black some blue and some champagne. I've been told since she is chocolate she will deffo carry the bb gene is this correct? Also with having siblings with dilute colours will she be likely to also carry the dd gene? Thanks for any help