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I decided to do a breeding, bred a a 95.70 to a 96.00, both SS 20 and THIS is the litter that I get?
www.showdog.com/general/offspring.aspx?name=Calms%20Magicians%20Apprentice

Does this have anything to do with the fact I accidentally showed mom while pregnant? OR Does it have anything to do with the fact she is on show feed while pregnant?

I am getting really discouraged. It is to the point I am not going to breed at all.

Any recommendations would be greatly appreciated.

It happens. I bred 2 high quality, 20 SS Afghan Hounds and the entire litter was garbage, low SOP, not one SS of 20, and some actually below 15 (I think one SS was 14.7!!!). It's just a quirk of the game, but it can get discouraging for sure.

It shouldn't have anything to do with food or showing, it's just something in the genes that every now and then goes awry. LOL. Thanks Jeff.

Seriously, it's part of the game. To say you aren't going to breed anymore is kind of ridiculous. You arent guaranteed amazing puppies here or in RL based on the parents. It's a dimension of the game.

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Last edited by Degree on 3/29/2016 10:57:41 AM

Same breed for reference:
www.showdog.com/dog.aspx?id=14786461

Dam has 17 SS and pup ends up with 20. Experiment litter worked for me. Keep trying. My high expectation litters fail 99% of the time.

I probably won't give up yet but in real life, breeding animals you normally will get half way in between parents with an occasional single that is garbage and even more rare an individual that exceeds both parents. A whole litter of garbage is not realistic in my opinion. I will give Degree's experiment a try.

Wow that is a humdinger of a dog there Degree!

Thank you! I also keep bitches/studs with lower SOPs depending on their adjusted SOP and other traits. Her low SS will probably come back to bite me but for now, it worked. Don't be discouraged... you can also try a repeat breeding. This has also worked for me, too.

Ahh it really sucks when this happens. I have bred 2 really nice, over 93 sop dogs together and got rubbish pups. And bred mediocre dogs and got these two stunners

Highest SOP at the time in the breed
www.showdog.com/dog.aspx?id=14616347

current highest afaik
www.showdog.com/dog.aspx?id=14771370

Please don't stop breeding, you never know what suprises you will get

I just had the same problem with a litter I had very high expectations for Unfortunately, English Setters seem to have a big problem with low SS. I don't end up with so many low SS puppies in my other breeds, but in ES I frequently get litters with only 1 or 2 puppies with 20 SS.

Yep - 100% a part of the game.

Yes - It's frustrating, but hey - that's genetics for you!

Edited to add:

No - showing her whilst pregnant will have zero affect on how the pups turn out. It only has an affect on her show performance in the ring.

Food doesn't play a role in genetics - so it doesn't matter what food she was on - it won't affect the genetic quality of the pups. It does affect their 'condition' when born though (as in their nutrition/body condition).

Another thing to consider:

Breeding 2 unrelated dogs can also create 'what the?' litters.

Sometimes - if you're lucky - breeding two dogs from unrelated lines can create amazing pups. But - most of the time - when you throw 2 different dogs together who have hardly a 'common factor' between them the genetics go a bit haywire. It's kind of like the genes just don't know what on earth to do - and that's when you get crap litters. I've seen this happen many, many times throughout the years.



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Last edited by Chaos and Havoc on 3/29/2016 3:45:37 PM

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Last edited by Chaos and Havoc on 3/29/2016 3:46:29 PM

could be runt factor, they can just happen and some times it sucks you can get a lot of just crap.

however in this case id say its also coming from thurther back in the pedigree which is a risk when non 20ss dogs are used but it can pay off big when they have nice traits otherwise.

in the 3rd gen there is 'Calms Justa Stroke Of Luck' who is not a 20ss. yes he is just off but show shine is the one trait that can fluctuate wildly. likely because its not an actual phical trait like head shape but just that special something that makes a good show dog stand out.

personaly id have kept and used that bitch puppy myself.

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Last edited by PPvallhunds on 3/29/2016 4:07:52 PM

SS is the easiest thing to fix in this game.

Just breed the low ss with nice dark blue good traits to a SS20 high sop and you will have a shot at getting a stand out.

Will

SS is overrated anyway. I recently finished a bitch with a 17.2 SS, and my best litters often have at least one parent with a SS below 20. If the traits are good, SS and even to a large degree SOP don't matter as much as you might think.

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posted by NissaV
SS is overrated anyway. I recently finished a bitch with a 17.2 SS, and my best litters often have at least one parent with a SS below 20. If the traits are good, SS and even to a large degree SOP don't matter as much as you might think.

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In what breed? English Setters are competitive and SS will definitely matter.

It happens to me several times a year. A litter that should have everything going for it (traits, COI and SOP), turns into a complete dud. Just part of the game. ...... And I have had stunning pups from litters that I didn't really expect much from (usually trying to just improve a particular trait).
I just try another combination. I can understand the frustration, especially when the boy was not a home stud, but one you have paid out a stud fee for.
I am not a breeder, but suspect that this can happen in real life also!

SS is a pain, IMO.
I breed for 20SS and won't keep anything less than a 19.

I've noticed (throughout my kennels atleast) that SS is the biggest gamble, and I HATE seeing great traits with horrid SS.

Since basically eliminating low SS from my lines I've found my litters are more consistent and a majority of pups are 20 SS. I do still get low SS, especially when I breed out, but even in my own lines. It took me some time, but I believe my lines are for the better with all 20 SS. I don't hang onto otherwise nice broods with low SS so they don't take up space, and then my hopes aren't crushed when a great pup or litter has all low SS.

*edited to add* low SS will jump generations, if sire and dam are both 20 SS but there is low SS in the pedigree, it will come back out in the pups!

Just my two cents and I know a lot of people don't play this way and don't agree.

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Last edited by Astoria Kennel on 3/30/2016 3:52:33 PM