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I have noticed that Several breeds have this problem, not just Dobermans. Has anyone recently broke this barrier? Does anyone have a dog with a head above 9.8? And I don't mean just a head of 9.9 or 10, but 11's, 12's, and above count too. I have two starters with heads above 10, but that is going to be a long haul. Looking for any advice that may help shorten that time.

Borzoi head's are mostly 10.2 and higher. I've been introducing 9s by colour breeding (back to starter dogs originally).
Breeding back to a starter might be your best option if 9.8 seems fixed. It does take a while to get the SOP back up though.
You can also try searching through old abandoned kennels to see if there are any studs with the traits you want.

Pointers were stuck on 9.8 heads for ages - my whole time in the breed. Couldn't even get to 9.9.

Suddenly the heads jumped to 10 and are now almost locked in. While I started a kennel just to break that 9.8, another kennel got there first.

We in Pointers didn't need to go back to starters - maybe we were just lucky.

I am having success using starter dogs to bring in better heads in English Setters. I haven't reached current SOP yet but am really close- I suspect it will only take 2 or 3 more generations. Here is my bitch with a 10 head.
www.showdog.com/dog.aspx?id=15848419
Current SOP dogs only have 9.8 heads. She is less than 3 points off from current SOP and I have another with a 10.3 head that is less the 2 points off. I just only kept bitches with heads above 10 and bred them to my current SOP studs. It has taken me about a year and a half to get to this point and I took a few months off from the game in there. These bitches are 11 generations off from my first source dog.

I have had success getting and keeping 10 for Head.
I suggest you enter all your 9.8H in a show where the judge likes very high head. Doesn't matter if you get beaten,it's just see which of your 9.8 has the best numbers for head. Show them under all 3 VH head judges and analyze the results.

Don't use handlers for this experiment. Breed the top two winning dogs to all compatible bitches, and their offspring to the other dog, don't let COI get higher than 13, and keep as low as possible.

This is a bit simplistic and I spent time researching pedigrees to see which individuals has the best heads throughout the pedigree.

When you do get a 10...dog or bitch, hang on to it so you can breed it back to its grandchildren/cousins. Keep them all, regardless of SOP, for as long as you can.
Good luck...it took me 2 months, then I started to raise the SOP.
Good luck with it

Lap of Luxury's theory sounds interesting, and as the Keeshonds are stuck at 9.8 -- worth trying.

Thanks for passing it on.

I went through our remaining 20 judges, and only found two, who fitted the criteria for preferring "Very High" heads:

Wilfredo Feaster & Genevieve Cyr. Unfortunately we have lost Timothy Rodriguez.

So I think it will take a while --- but worth working on!

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Last edited by Aussiewolfsister on 9/3/2017 4:22:19 AM

Tim Rodriguez has a show tonight, and one more this month. Sadly G.Cyr and W Feaster have few shows this month.

One thing I noticed when doing my Head Project is that I never got a 9.9 and several months on, still haven't. Maybe you need 10.1+ to get those?

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Last edited by Lap of Luxury on 9/3/2017 1:01:04 PM

American Cockers seem to have the same issue however I found in a semi-dormant kennel of mine two 10.0 heads in one litter (130 some days old), a male and a female.

I have produced maybe a half dozen 10.0 heads from breeding these dogs to 9.8s - not a single 9.9 though.

A thought just came to me - seems far fetched I know, but I wonder if there is some wrinkle in the code or database (however it's set up) that prevents 9.9 from displaying so perhaps a lot of those 9.8 are actually in the 9.9 range.

The other thing that sort of makes me suspect something like that is that I have an ACS that has beaten a GCH that's about .45 SOP higher - 2 times straight. I've looked at them trait by trait and in almost every case they are actually either even or the GCH is higher. Both have 9.8 heads. It looks odd to me but I figured its probably those pesky decimals.

This is my girl:
www.showdog.com/dog.aspx?id=15846728

Look at her last two shows in particular (Sept 2 and 3). On the 2nd they have the same handler and both days the same judge who is high and very high on feet and size, both areas where the GCH is better.

What do you think?

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Last edited by GaylanStudio6 on 9/3/2017 2:34:00 PM

I feel you may be right about some 9.8's actually being 9.9's. Has anyone ever had a 9.9 I wonder? Whether is a glitch or not I've always found it much easier to get other traits to 10.

My first 10 popped up unexpectedly and that's when I started the project. His SOP was not nearly as high as most of the dogs he beat, it always amazed me how well he did in the ring ending his career with some 3 rd/4th in BIS!I think he threw about 25% heads in the first generation and now the breed has many Head 10. All down to him and the breeding of his parents (not my breeding)

www.showdog.com/dog.aspx?name=Ch%20*Shine%20Head%20Case

It makes it so hard to FH new born pups, knowing a lesser dog could be a Group prospect with hidden greatness!

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Last edited by Star Shiine on 9/10/2017 1:07:21 AM

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Last edited by Star Shiine on 9/10/2017 1:11:55 AM