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Hi there, I'm relatively new so would appreciate some advice. What is your experience of close matings (father/daughter, half brother/sister etc.) in improving SOP. Also what effect does COI have in this game?

All advice and sharing of experiences gratefully received.

COI should be 15% or less. I have done a few where it was just over 18 breeding for a certain colour.

the higher the COI the worse the pups turn out.

Thank you!

If you are working with a strong, consistent line of dogs, breeding higher COIs doesn't have much of an impact.

Pedigrees with dogs from a mix of lines tends to create the chance for more sporadic differences in quality of offspring.

A mix of lines can produce quicker jumps in SOP stats on individual dogs, but the slower moving tightly linebred lines tend to move the entire kennel forward at the same pace.

Basically, Don't be afraid of playing with high COI.

I have one kennel based on a bitch I bought and finished and bred back to her father since he was the only available stud dog. I was able to buy one additional bitch who was a cousin to my original girl. I bred her to the same stud and started line completely based on these three closely related dogs. Zero additional dogs have been added to the line. I bred the line as high as 38 COI until I created enough stock that now my 7 to 18 COI on average.

Will

That’s really useful. Thanks Will. Was this is in Giant Schnauzers?

No. I just jumped back into giants a few months ago when Blunote left. I'm only 2-3 gens in, but my COIs are running closer to 20 in the breed.

Will

I have had litters of 30+ COI with SOP of 100 in Afghans and other breeds. At this point, I don't think it matters much. At most, sometimes some pups will have SS of less than 10 but the quality is usually the equivalent of 100.

I was doing high COI breedings in Siberian Huskies. I had one breeding that was over 41%. They were still showing 100s, like virtually all Sibes, but over time I found that the really high COI ones weren't having as much success in the show ring. I dropped the COI back to around 15 and that brought them back up to par.

Bumping this thread since someone is unhappy I did an inbreeding regardless of explaining that I know what I'm doing with it.

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posted by Black Raven Kennels 2
Bumping this thread since someone is unhappy I did an inbreeding regardless of explaining that I know what I'm doing with it.

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Yes not real dogs. We do not have to worry about actual health issues with inbreeding in the game. Personally I keep under 15% as much as I can, but occasionally I will go over if it’s real slim pickings or I’m trying to get a certain recessive color to come out. But I know plenty of breeders who breed with higher COI occasionally especially to cement certain traits etc. It can impact SOP (though as previously stated 100 SOP with high COI will still produce some 100s). No harm no foul. If you don’t want to do it don’t, but it definitely can have its uses in the games breeding program.

What I do is to strengthen desired traits. So I will do mother x son, daughter x father, brother x sister. From that litter, those pups may either be outcrossed completely, or linebred depending on what I need. I show and breed in real life, and genetics is something I'm obsessed with and thankfully it can be applied here as well.

I do this in every breed I have, especially since some of them are not popular and I am the only one-BUT it is always possible to end up with 0 coi if you pay attention. I've also been playing since 2004 (other kennels) so that was way before coi was introduced.

It just takes experimenting and paying attention in the ring for hidden decimals. I've done the same thing as Will has, and when the dogs reach what I want with crappy show shine, of course it gets worked on.

I just wanted to help this fellow breeder understand that it is not going to hurt the game. In Kelpies right now it would help for the higher sop (we both have one dog and one bitch - litter mates that I wanted to do a breeding for as those pups can be outcrossed to a 'project dog. That's how I've been working in Tibetan Mastiffs. So I am hoping that this helps them to understand what I tried to explain.

I also have done some inbreeding/linebreeding to use as examples to show them and explain that of course no litter is ever going to be magically superior but to compare the results. I've gotten terrible dogs and AMAZING dogs that way. I don't go above 30% coi if I even breed that high up, which would be to lock in a trait at the expense of messing another up.

Anyway, I just wanted to help them since there are great explanations in this thread. Does not mean the breeding I wanted to do will happen and that's okay.

Yay for mini stories haha. ^_^

Line bred as in a few generations back. Forgot to mention that.

Really at this point in the game, you have to keep something from almost every litter in order to keep COI down while still moving things forward. In my color breeding recessives, I usually need to keep 2 visibles of each gene, 2 carriers, and at least one modern SOP.

My first gold dam was a brother x sister breeding. She herself was a bronze grand champion and top dog of the month for one and a half months straight. Her best son is 54% COI.

I haven't even really had a successful inbreed then
outcross experience on here to maintain or solidify traits, and until I reach 99-100 SOP, staying below 17% COI has always been the best bet for keeping trait quality.

So IMO no one should get upset about inbreeding on here. It's not unethical, and the inbred dogs I've had were equally as good producers and showers and have lived a long time as the ones who weren't inbred.

My litters turned out with excellent results for the Kelpies. The 25% coi's will be out crossed or line bred down, depending. Breeds also vary too with strategy for that.