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 Stylish
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7/15/2008 3:37:58 PM reply with quote send message to Stylish Object to Post

I'm pretty busy this week so I'll go into detail and make a proper post when I have the time, however being involved in Shih tzu in RL I have to back Lenalee up on this one and I hope that the majority of shih tzu on this game are gold and white, it is all about being realistic and in a RL Show Ring I would think that 75% and up would be Gold and White.
 Cloud Nine Goldens
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7/15/2008 4:14:16 PM reply with quote send message to Cloud Nine Goldens Object to Post

We do need to remember that is not just the population of dogs in the show ring. It is meant to represent a total population of the breed. This includes show dogs, breeding dogs, and pet dogs. While gold and white is the fashion right now in shows, that does not represent the total shih tzu population. These percentages are only for the starter dog allocation. The genetics will play out until they get to our dogs. We cannot control what colors our current dogs will be. We will have to breed the colors we want back in.
 LenaLee
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7/15/2008 4:19:08 PM reply with quote send message to LenaLee Object to Post

Well in REal life I would still say 75% of dogs bred are gold and white.

What you people do not understand is g/w is NOT the fahsion only these days since the time of IMPERIAL CHINA it was the gold and white that was preferred and this is why the POPULATION of shih tzu in real life is MOSTLY gold and white as people bred for that and almost did not breed other clors much.

So to make this realistic we need a lot of g/w,

And about the Labradors, a labrador is a black dog. Sure there are chocolates and yellows.

But people prefer a black one.
 Cloud Nine Goldens
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7/15/2008 4:30:49 PM reply with quote send message to Cloud Nine Goldens Object to Post

It really doesn't matter to me exactly what percentage we go with. However, this will affect all starter dogs we get to breed color back in. So if we set one color really high, such as 75% the other colors will have very low percentages, making it very hard to get dogs of that color for breeding purposes. For example, if we end up with saying one color is only 1%, than we only have a 1 out of 100 chance of getting a starter dog of that color. That one dog could be absolutely horrible and thus making it extremely hard to bring dogs of that color up to current sop. I think we need to try to keep our percentages for each color lower so that it doesn't make it impossible to breed in the other colors. Just my opinion. Please try to keep this from turning into an argument. It is probably going to take Jeff a while to get colors worked out for our breed, so the sooner we can agree on something the sooner he can get started. In another breed, the colors were implemented but the breeders could not agree on the starter dog allocation percentages so colors were removed and will not be re-implemented until a later date. So the sooner we can get this hammered out the best for everyone. You can then decide what colors you want to work on and start breeding those colors back into the current SOP.
 Sassy Shih Tzus
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7/15/2008 4:50:19 PM reply with quote send message to Sassy Shih Tzus Object to Post

This is from the MinPin discussion, it was posted by admin:

"The amount of fawns is the result of breeding. They are only 5% of the starter dogs.

However, after that generation, color played absolutely no role in breeding decisions until now. Colors that would have been bred out in real life weren't considered. It's not meant to result in the real life percentage at generation 30, just generation 0."



 Sassy Shih Tzus
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7/15/2008 7:23:58 PM reply with quote send message to Sassy Shih Tzus Object to Post

Here is my suggestion I am putting up for consideration.
I took a random sampling of 50 shih tzu champions from a shih tzu database. Colors that were not included in that sampling were given percentages of 5% and lower. I chose 2% as the least possible because than we can at least end up with 2 blues per 100 dogs.

Gold and White - 25%
Black and White - 16%
Silver and White - 8%
Brindle and White - 8%
Red and White - 7%
Gold - 6%
Black - 6%
Liver/Chocolate and White - 5%
Liver/Chocolate - 4%
Red - 4%
Brindle - 4%
Silver - 3%
Blue and White - 2%
Blue - 2%

Now I realize this isn't 100% accurate. We aren't going to get 100% accurate unless we can get an actual count from the AKC. However, if we make one percentage too high and the others too small it is going to be very hard to breed those colors back into the breed. Right now for example, we are only going to get a blue starter 2 times out of every 100 starter dogs. The genetics will then pan out and pass through until it gets to our dogs. We could end up with all silver dogs, we don't know. We will then have to acquire starter dogs to breed other colors back in. I was told by a RL breeder that right now blacks and black and whites are becoming more popular for breeding programs because they help with pigmentation. Livers are also becoming more popular when they are deep chocolates and are making their way back into breeding programs and shows. The original Empress that bred shih tzus was actually most fond of her solid black shih tzu and was frequently shown in art with that shih tzu. So it is hard to come up with an exact percentage. All of these colors are allowed because they all exist and are to be considered equally in shows. We know that isn't completely true, but I do think in terms of reality we do have to allow them all to have a chance in the game. If we give them too small of percentages, some colors could end up extinct. If you are more fond of one color, you will breed that color and eventually certain colors will have a majority, however I think to start, we do need to at least give each color a chance. Please post your thoughts, but please no attacks. I am trying very hard to come up with something to make everyone happy and make it possible to actually breed colors back in. Once again, I want to reiterate this for breeders that are new to this discussion. These percentages will not really affect your current dogs. They are simply the allocation of starter dogs. The genes will then play out and affect our current dogs. We want to keep some variety in the allocation of starter dogs, otherwise we will possibly end up with all one color.


 Arden_Farms
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7/15/2008 9:16:35 PM reply with quote send message to Arden_Farms Object to Post

quote
posted by LenaLee

And the reason they exist more is because they are bred more and b/w are not bred as much.


Thats what i said.



that being said that is a preference for RL breeders at the moment.. Thats not to say that threwout the course of this game we haven't been unknowing breeding more black and whites or liver and whites or whatever... When Jeff does the generator it'll be the luck of the draw as color goes... and there's no telling what actual color combination will prove to be more dominant once this goes threw...

The only thing that will really be able to sway it either way will be the percentages we deside on...

as for the deadly genes for livers/blues i really dont think jeff is planning on getting into all that

and i still stand by my opinuion that if you're going to make the game realist all colors aknowledged in the breed standard should be taken into consideration...


The AKC standard for shih tzu says
quote
Color and Markings
All are permissible and to be considered equally.
The Americans Shih Tzu Club also says the same as above and further clarifies the statment by saying...

quote
Clarification – All colors and markings are permissible and no color or marking should take preference over another. Dark faces or uneven markings should not be penalizes and are quite acceptable.


The AKC also lists the following as acceptible colors and color combinations

quote


Colors

Description Type Code

Black S 007
Black & White S 019
Blue S 037
Blue & White S 045
Brindle S 057
Brindle & White S 059
Gold S 091
Gold & White S 092
Liver S 123
Liver & White S 125
Red S 140
Red & White S 146
Silver S 176
Silver & White S 182
Black Gold & Silver A 235
Black Gold & White A 310
Black White & Silver A 033
Silver Gold & White A 188
White A 199

Markings

Description Type Code

Black Markings S 002
Black Mask S 004


The only diffrence in the American Shih Tzu Club information is that it does not include white but rather "sliver and white"




Further more i would like to quote some historical information...


quote
It is widely accepted that the Shih Tzu is descended from small dogs from Tibet, given as gifts to the Chinese Emperors and bred with Chinese dogs including the Pekinese. It was under the care and direction of the Dowager Empress, Tzu Hsi, who came into power in 1861 that the Shih Tzu developed into the breed we know today.

.........
Tzu Hsi was wise to the laws of color inheritance and knew the importance of the darker shades of brindle, silver and black in maintaining pigmentation-of eye color and coat color. [b/]





 Cloud Nine Goldens
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7/15/2008 10:18:22 PM reply with quote send message to Cloud Nine Goldens Object to Post

I am sorry I did not include the alternate colors. I was under the impression that those were not common enough. Jeff said to keep it simple and not include the really rare colors. Getting into tri-colors will really confuse the already confusing genetics. However, if someone really wants to see the alternate colors included please feel free to add the genetic information for those colors. My concern with putting one color too high percentage wise is that it will make it harder for other colors to come into play. If you look at the genetic code, gold and whites have pretty specific genes. This will cause them to almost solely produce gold and whites. Solids will be very very rare because partis have the recessive gene sisi and when bred to another sisi they can only produce partis. So if we don't have many solids in the mix of things, we will end up only with partis. I myself prefer partis, but I know that there are also solids and some people actually prefer them. So while I agree that Gold and Whites are more prevalent, I think we should hesitate before putting them at a high percentage such as 75% because this would leave 12 other colors with only 25%, giving each color a very small percentage, thus being very hard to breed into the game. Just my two cents worth.
 Cloud Nine Goldens
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7/15/2008 10:21:40 PM reply with quote send message to Cloud Nine Goldens Object to Post

One more quick note, I did not add markings to the code because I don't think it would be realistic for us to expect Jeff to not only show color but also specify markings. Since the colors/markings will not actually affect any part of the game, I think we should keep it simple and just have the colors. However, if people really feel strongly otherwise, we could add that to the genetic code.
 LenaLee
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7/15/2008 10:28:49 PM reply with quote send message to LenaLee Object to Post

ROTFL Yes Arden Farms I know what the standard says.

But I suggets you go out and show a shih tzu with 1 side of his her face that is black. I would like to see you try and finish the dog quickly.

I'm talking about RL and not the game.
 Arden_Farms
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7/15/2008 10:30:51 PM reply with quote send message to Arden_Farms Object to Post

quote
posted by Cloud Nine Goldens
One more quick note, I did not add markings to the code because I don't think it would be realistic for us to expect Jeff to not only show color but also specify markings. Since the colors/markings will not actually affect any part of the game, I think we should keep it simple and just have the colors. However, if people really feel strongly otherwise, we could add that to the genetic code.
I just really put all that information to just make a point... i agree that getting into spcific markings is going abit too far... most shih tzus being either soild or parti colored would basicly make the simple version..

ex.

Black
Black & White
Gold
Gold & White

etc.

I was just trying to make the point of illistrating that all colors and color combinations are permissible in the ring and therefore should not nessisarily be excluded...

 LenaLee
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7/15/2008 10:30:55 PM reply with quote send message to LenaLee Object to Post

quote
posted by Sassy Shih Tzus

Gold and White - 25%
Black and White - 16%
Silver and White - 8%
Brindle and White - 8%
Red and White - 7%
Gold - 6%
Black - 6%
Liver/Chocolate and White - 5%
Liver/Chocolate - 4%
Red - 4%
Brindle - 4%
Silver - 3%
Blue and White - 2%
Blue - 2%


I can live with thosee percentages.

Rather than the first percentages that were presented.
 Cloud Nine Goldens
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7/15/2008 10:33:28 PM reply with quote send message to Cloud Nine Goldens Object to Post

White and silver is different from white. White and Silver is listed as a standard color on its own. White is listed as an alternate but is very very rare to have an all white shih tzu. The supposed white shih tzus almost always actually have at least markings of another color such as cream or silver.
 Cloud Nine Goldens
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7/15/2008 10:38:32 PM reply with quote send message to Cloud Nine Goldens Object to Post

No, I understand what you are saying Arden. In the end, we need to remember that shih tzus can produce almost every color known to man and they are all permissible. Can you imagine a purple shih tzu? wink ;) Just joking. There are also other colors that are common in the RL Shih Tzu breeding community such as Chocolate, that people don't realize actually fall under other colors in terms of the AKC registration. So people that are fond of chocolate dogs should remember that a deep, dark liver would be chocolate (assuming it has the appropriate brown features such as nose). Blues can assume the look of other colors such as black and gray, but are identified by the blue features and blue tint. Brindle can be many different shades, being Gold Brindle, Red Brindle, etc. Brindle basically means a mixture of two colors, for example Gold and Black. Brindle used to be referred to as grizzle.
 Arden_Farms
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7/15/2008 10:41:42 PM reply with quote send message to Arden_Farms Object to Post

quote
posted by LenaLee
ROTFL Yes Arden Farms I know what the standard says.

But I suggets you go out and show a shih tzu with 1 side of his her face that is black. I would like to see you try and finish the dog quickly.

I'm talking about RL and not the game.

For the purpose of the game no one is acctually going to see if the dog has black on one side of it's head.

My argument is more to try and accomidate how the algorythum for this game works..

simply this

jeff will take these general percentages
from these percentages 40 or more generations will be affected as we as a breed on showdogs have been breeding for aproxiamtly 40 generations

when you apply the color algorythum you will end up with an uncontrolled breeding standard in regards to color because the color will only be applied to the percentage of STARTER DOGS... the colors that result will be from the lines we've already produced in the breed therefore it is my opinuion that since all dogs are permissible by the standard then the color should be repersented by predominant genetic factors more than color "preferences"
 Cloud Nine Goldens
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7/15/2008 10:42:32 PM reply with quote send message to Cloud Nine Goldens Object to Post

The list of breeds that are on Jeff's waiting list is growing by the day. So the sooner we can get ourselves on that list the better. In another breed of mine, I was told admin wasn't coming back to that breed for a few weeks at least. So the sooner we can come to an agreement the better. I just hope the genetics play out as we expect and it doesn't turn out that we have been breeding all blues so far and we end up with a high majority of blues (or something like that)! I think with these percentages it will give the starter dogs enough of a variety to keep them mixing it up and give us at least a few different colors in our current kennels.
 Arden_Farms
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7/15/2008 10:48:23 PM reply with quote send message to Arden_Farms Object to Post

I really like Sassy's idea.. My suggestion would be that the gold and white and black and white should be closer in percent and some of the other percents perhaps a tab bit higher to even it out...
 Arden_Farms
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7/15/2008 10:55:22 PM reply with quote send message to Arden_Farms Object to Post

This is my suggestion...

Gold and White - 18%
Black and White - 12%
Silver and White - 9%
Brindle and White - 9%
Red and White - 8%
Gold - 7%
Black - 7%
Liver/Chocolate and White - 6%
Liver/Chocolate - 5%
Red - 5%
Brindle - 5%
Silver - 4%
Blue and White - 3%
Blue - 3%


 Arden_Farms
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7/15/2008 10:57:52 PM reply with quote send message to Arden_Farms Object to Post

If thats not agreeable I would consider pretty much anything between that and what sassy had suggested
 Sassy Shih Tzus
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7/15/2008 10:58:17 PM reply with quote send message to Sassy Shih Tzus Object to Post

One positive about putting gold and whites and black and whites closer together: a lot of their genetic makeup is opposite. This would give us more variety in the genetic makeup, allowing for more possibilities of offspring of those starter dogs. This will in turn pass different genes down and hopefully give us more variety in our current kennels.
Black and Whites can have or carry almost any genetic combination because black is dominant and can hide recessive genes. The only thing they don't have or carry is the solid gene.
Gold and Whites have some very specific genes that are unique to them. This limits their possible offspring.
It matters what they are bred to though and if we have too many of one type, such as gold and whites, the chances are higher that they were then bred together and then bred together again resulting in a limited offspring. Just an added note.

I did e-mail some of the other main shih tzu breeders and asked them to add their two cents. No offense to LenaLee and Arden, but I do feel that it has mainly been a discussion between three people and we are not the only three people that will be affected by this decision. So if we can get some of the other breeders to contribute we may get to a decision easier. Then again, too many cooks in the kitchen.......... it could end up getting more complicated.

Let's all just remember that we do have a common goal: getting color in our breed. All colors, not just your personal favorite. So think in terms of the big picture. happy :) Thanks!

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