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 AmazonAri
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7/18/2008 5:14:47 AM reply with quote send message to AmazonAri Object to Post

Hello, SOrry I havent posted till now, I have been offline... I have to keep it breif but will add more later.

Ok first of all I must say I have never seen a picture of a solid silver or blue, in my years and years of researching.

I would agree that Gold and Whites have a huge majority in the breed, in show and pets, black and whites are becoming more popular, so these are deff the top two % breeds, I know the solid blacks, golds, red and whites and choc and whites would be the next popular. I would say the smaller % would go to the silver / white, brindles, blues and blue and white so I would say something like this

Gold and White - 21%
Black and White - 16%
Red and White - 10%
Black - 9%
Gold - 7%
Liver/Chocolate and White - 7%
Brindle and White - 7%
Liver/Chocolate - 5%
Red - 5%
Brindle - 5%
Silver and White - 3%
Blue and White - 3%
Blue - 1%
Silver - 1%

This is only a roughish calculation at this stage but this is the way i see it
 Arden_Farms
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7/18/2008 11:02:03 AM reply with quote send message to Arden_Farms Object to Post

I was reading admins min pin color thread and i wanted to use it to try and illistrate that no matter the argument you still may not end up with what you think you're going to...

when admin was updating min pins in the first few generations black and tan seemed to be the dominant then after 10 or so gens reds and fawns became enormisly over common... and after about 10 more gens or so black and tans became rare...

If you guys have ever seen or know anything about min pins in RL they're most ccommonly Black and Tan... and i would assume there percentage probaby had black and tans as the dominant percent..

I'm trying to get the understanding accross that even if we did vote a higher percent of Gold and White after 40 gens there is really no garentee there will be more gold and white...

the bottom line is color in the game will most likely not reflect RL in the beginning anyway... we will inevidably have to breed for color from where we are regardless of the finnal desision...

i say this because there have been comments in this thread arguing we should pick "this" color so "that" color isn't more dominant... when the reality is that that isn't going to make a heap worth of diffrence once the computer starts calculating our current dogs color based on 40 generations where we had no color to base our desisions on...

I e-mailed admin and asked them to give me there opinuion on weither it is more important to deside the percentage on what is genetically dominant or what is popular for the breed...

when i get an answer back i'll post it and perhaps that will help end this debate
 Cloud Nine Goldens
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7/18/2008 1:35:57 PM reply with quote send message to Cloud Nine Goldens Object to Post

I could go with most of that, but I think that Brindle and White and Silver and White are more common. I would suggest they have higher percentages. I also am not sure red and white would be quite so high. Most "reds" really fade to gold.

So maybe something like this:

Gold and White - 21%
Black and White - 15%
Black - 9%
Gold - 8%
Brindle and White - 8%
Silver and White - 7%
Liver and White - 7%
Red and White - 7%
Liver - 5%
Red - 4%
Brindle - 4%
Blue and White - 3%
Silver - 1%
Blue - 1%

Now something to note is that we really do need a variety of the genes in the starter dog allocation in order to prevent colors becoming extinct. So don't only look at the colors, but look at the genes behind those colors. In terms of the purposes of this game, we really need to be looking at the genes. It is important to keep colors like Black and White and Blacks near the top because they have a variety of genes, making them good for breeding.
 LenaLee
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7/18/2008 11:11:54 PM reply with quote send message to LenaLee Object to Post

quote
posted by Cloud Nine Goldens
I could go with most of that, but I think that Brindle and White and Silver and White are more common. I would suggest they have higher percentages. I also am not sure red and white would be quite so high. Most "reds" really fade to gold.

So maybe something like this:

Gold and White - 21%
Black and White - 15%
Black - 9%
Gold - 8%
Brindle and White - 8%
Silver and White - 7%
Liver and White - 7%
Red and White - 7%
Liver - 5%
Red - 4%
Brindle - 4%
Blue and White - 3%
Silver - 1%
Blue - 1%

I would be happy with these percentages.They are acceptable to me.

And Arden Farms since you seem to think some of my comments are "stupid" I suggest you remove this from your page - and also stop asking how I can get high SOP!

"(Also Special Thanks to LenaLee for all your wonderful advice and for just being such a GREAT cheerleader for Shih Tzus)"

I also suggest YOU NEVER buy any of my dogs OR EVER breed to any of my studs again.
 LenaLee
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7/18/2008 11:44:18 PM reply with quote send message to LenaLee Object to Post

quote
posted by AmazonAri
Hello, SOrry I havent posted till now, I have been offline... I have to keep it breif but will add more later.

Ok first of all I must say I have never seen a picture of a solid silver or blue, in my years and years of researching.

I would agree that Gold and Whites have a huge majority in the breed, in show and pets, black and whites are becoming more popular, so these are deff the top two % breeds, I know the solid blacks, golds, red and whites and choc and whites would be the next popular. I would say the smaller % would go to the silver / white, brindles, blues and blue and white so I would say something like this

Gold and White - 21%
Black and White - 16%
Red and White - 10%
Black - 9%
Gold - 7%
Liver/Chocolate and White - 7%
Brindle and White - 7%
Liver/Chocolate - 5%
Red - 5%
Brindle - 5%
Silver and White - 3%
Blue and White - 3%
Blue - 1%
Silver - 1%

This is only a roughish calculation at this stage but this is the way i see it

This is also a good percentage, I would be happy with this.
 Arden_Farms
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7/18/2008 11:48:10 PM reply with quote send message to Arden_Farms Object to Post


I would be happy with these percentages.They are acceptable to me.

And Arden Farms since you seem to think some of my comments are "stupid" I suggest you remove this from your page - and also stop asking how I can get high SOP!

"(Also Special Thanks to LenaLee for all your wonderful advice and for just being such a GREAT cheerleader for Shih Tzus)"

I also suggest YOU NEVER buy any of my dogs OR EVER breed to any of my studs again.



I do not belive I said your comment was stupid. I belive what I said was that the argument was becomming stupid.

I'm sorry you feel the way you do. It's a true shame.

But if so, so be it.
 Marchen Shih Tzus
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7/19/2008 11:50:46 AM reply with quote send message to Marchen Shih Tzus Object to Post

Can we try to keep this from turning into an argument and simply come to an agreement? No offense to everyone, but the way things are going I worry we will be one of the last breeds to get colors.
 Arden_Farms
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7/19/2008 5:07:22 PM reply with quote send message to Arden_Farms Object to Post

quote
posted by Marchen Shih Tzus
Can we try to keep this from turning into an argument and simply come to an agreement? No offense to everyone, but the way things are going I worry we will be one of the last breeds to get colors.
My vote is simply that we try and keep a balance between the black and white and gold and white dogs.... I hounestly dont care at this point which has a higher percent only that they stay close together in prozimity.

That and all colors that are part of the breed as a whole be included at some percent... preferably close to equal..

The suggestion of a vote has been made. So lets vote..


If you are in favor of higher gold vote "gold"
If you are in favor of higher black vote "black"
If you are in favor of equality between both vote "equal"



 Arden_Farms
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7/19/2008 7:14:16 PM reply with quote send message to Arden_Farms Object to Post

.
 Cloud Nine Goldens
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7/19/2008 11:15:50 PM reply with quote send message to Cloud Nine Goldens Object to Post

Arden, while I agree we may need to come to a vote to reach an agreement, I don't think the only factor is gold and white versus black and white. Even if we come to an agreement on those two, we still need to decide the rest of the colors. So here is what I am proposing. I will create an online poll and you can anonymously put in your vote. One vote only please! Just give me a couple minutes to get it ready.
 Cloud Nine Goldens
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7/19/2008 11:38:21 PM reply with quote send message to Cloud Nine Goldens Object to Post

Ok I did not take any time making it look nice, just a basic page with four choices and a survey. Please look all the way through all of them. Decide which one you prefer for the percentage of starter dog allocation and PLEASE be honest and only vote once. It is anonymous, but I will be able to see if one computer voted multiple times. I will let the voting go until say Tuesday at Midnight, Showdog Time which is Central Standard Time. I will msg the shih tzu breeders. That way it is not just the same three-four people deciding for the whole breed.

www.geocities.com/marchenkennels/survey.html
 Arden_Farms
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7/20/2008 12:08:02 PM reply with quote send message to Arden_Farms Object to Post

Once again...

Thank you very much!
 Cloud Nine Goldens
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7/20/2008 11:35:25 PM reply with quote send message to Cloud Nine Goldens Object to Post

Please remember to be honest and vote only once! Thanks! Voting ends Tuesday at Midnight. We all must agree that after that, there will be NO more discussion, the percentages will be decided at that point. I myself will only vote in the case of a tie. If there is a majority at midnight, I will simply go with that. Remember, the end result will be the same, we will get color! happy :) YAY! I have already started finding pictures of the different colors to use, that is my favorite part haha. I will admit, it is hard to find royalty-free pictures of some of the colors, especially solids.
 LenaLee
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7/21/2008 12:08:22 AM reply with quote send message to LenaLee Object to Post

Thank you for the hard work,I have already voted, this is much appreciated.
 Cloud Nine Goldens
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7/23/2008 6:34:47 PM reply with quote send message to Cloud Nine Goldens Object to Post

Ok, and the winner is:
Percentage A with 50% of the votes
Percentage C followed with 31&
Percentage B was 19%
and Percentage D (which I threw in for more of a control) was 0%

Gold and White - 21%
Black and White - 15%
Black - 9%
Gold - 8%
Brindle and White - 8%
Silver and White - 7%
Liver and White - 7%
Red and White - 7%
Liver - 5%
Red - 4%
Brindle - 4%
Blue and White - 3%
Silver - 1%
Blue - 1%

 LenaLee
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7/24/2008 4:08:12 AM reply with quote send message to LenaLee Object to Post

I LOVE the winning colors, LOL!
 AmazonAri
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8/27/2008 8:18:50 AM reply with quote send message to AmazonAri Object to Post

So have we put them up for inclusion???

Ohh and thank you too alll those putting hard work into getting this together
 Tzus In Paradise
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9/20/2008 8:01:54 AM reply with quote send message to Tzus In Paradise Object to Post

I'm a little late to this thread, but I have a strong feeling about color, so I'd like to contribute. I have a liver and white Shih Tzu and my personal favorite colors are chocolate and liver. It really bothers me that they're the underdogs of the Tzu breeding and show world. I understand that they are dilute colors, but the same is true for other breeds where those colors are common in the breed ring. The first coming to mind is the Bearded Collie and second the Shar Pei.

Why should all Shih Tzu in the show ring be gold/white, silver/white etc.? Liver, blue and chocolate ARE acceptable colors in the Shih Tzu standard. It also states that all are permissible and to be judged EQUALLY.

Just to clarify also, I'm not saying that quality should be sacrificed for color. It seems that right now there are a lot more show Shih Tzu in gold/white, but that's because it was considered the preferred color. There's no reason that the same quality of dogs can't be bred in other colors.

Btw, I have been on showdog since 2004 (Hickory Creek Shar Pei), this is just a new kennel.

 Marchen Shih Tzus
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9/20/2008 8:32:00 PM reply with quote send message to Marchen Shih Tzus Object to Post

We did include livers. The percentages are only for how many of the generation 0's will be assigned that color. The colors will then play through the generations until they get to our current dogs. We have no idea how that will end up. We could end up with all livers/whites. I can GUARANTEE we will have lost colors. Unfortunately since we have so many possible colors, we will not end up with all of them in our kennel. We will probably have a few different colors, but the other colors will have to be bred back into the breed. Since you have a new kennel, I would save your starter dogs until colors are implemented for our breed. You will likely need them to bring back colors.
 Tzus In Paradise
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9/20/2008 10:56:46 PM reply with quote send message to Tzus In Paradise Object to Post

Thanks Marchen for the info. I'm really excited about this project! I may have missed it, but when will the colors be implemented?

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Did you know?
A specialty show may be regional or national. A "Best in Show" win at a national specialty show is tremendously prestigious, indicating that the winning dog or bitch triumphed at a contest which attracted entries from the most serious fanciers of that breed in the country or continent. Some specialty shows attract international entries.