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 Sassy Shih Tzus
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7/15/2008 11:00:32 PM reply with quote send message to Sassy Shih Tzus Object to Post

I could go with that Arden. Sorry I was posting my last post as you were posting, so I didn't see it until now.
 Arden_Farms
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7/15/2008 11:02:29 PM reply with quote send message to Arden_Farms Object to Post

quote

Let's all just remember that we do have a common goal: getting color in our breed. All colors, not just your personal favorite. So think in terms of the big picture. happy :) Thanks!
Amen! lol
 Second Knight
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7/16/2008 3:50:01 AM reply with quote send message to Second Knight Object to Post

I have no knowledge of Shih Tzu's in RL, I'm involved with some working breeds, so basically I'll go with whatever the RL breeders here think is realistic in terms of colour and distribution happy :)
 Arden_Farms
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7/16/2008 2:24:20 PM reply with quote send message to Arden_Farms Object to Post

Ok.. I've desided to change my vote on the origonally discussed color percent for the following reasons...

Black is the dominant gene
Gold is resessive to black but dominant to liver
Liver is dilute (as is blue and albino)

Therefor I feel black should be listed as the higher percentage followed by gold...

 Arden_Farms
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7/16/2008 4:54:15 PM reply with quote send message to Arden_Farms Object to Post

quote
posted by Marchen Shih Tzus

At first I was thinking that wouldn't be a very accurate representation, but I suppose they are all so close it really doesn't make that much of a difference. For example, gold and white should be the least likely due to the specific recessive genes you need to get that, but I have a gold and white at home and don't consider him to be that rare haha. But let me know what you think!

I know I'm digressing back in topic but after doing alot of reading today I think we should go back to what marchen was origonally suggesting... making the percentages as a whole more equal and with the colors devided by genetic prefernce verses our personal preferences...

The argument has been that shih tzus are more often seen in gold but that is not because gold is a dominant gene more that it has been selectivly bred...
 Stylish
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7/17/2008 12:38:01 AM reply with quote send message to Stylish Object to Post

The bottom line is, Do you want color to reflect and be realistic of shows in real life or not. Its not a matter of preferring one color over another as much as trying to make color on Shih Tzus in the game as realistic as possible. If I had my way on SD all Shih Tzu would be Red and White because thats my favorite coat color and I find gold n white washed out and prefer more color but that doesn't change the fact that 80% of the Shih tzu out there ( including the original shih tzus ) are gold and white plain and simple. The worry I have is that if we don't give gold and white the advantage of percentage that black being the dominate gene would overtake completely and we have none of the more common color. I would have been fine with these low percentage's if we were still dealing with source dogs and still working our way up to the Shih tzu we have achieved it would have been different however because we are so far ahead we should give the weaker colors the advantage so they don't get lost completely.

Remember this is SHOWdog not pet dog, the colors should reflect the show dog of today and the past.

I would also like to wait to give some other breeders such as AmazonAri ( who also shows in RL) a chance to speak.

- Nikki


Edited to add
"Yellow dogs were also more lion-like in appearance. The word "Shih Tzu" means "Lion" in Chinese. The Chinese tried to breed the Shih Tzu to resemble the lion, at least it was their idea of what a Lion looked like."
 Arden_Farms
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7/17/2008 1:01:38 AM reply with quote send message to Arden_Farms Object to Post

quote
posted by Stylish
The worry I have is that if we don't give gold and white the advantage of percentage that black being the dominate gene would overtake completely and we have none of the more common color. I would have been fine with these low percentage's if we were still dealing with source dogs and still working our way up to the Shih tzu we have achieved it would have been different however because we are so far ahead we should give the weaker colors the advantage so they don't get lost completely.

Remember this is SHOWdog not pet dog, the colors should reflect the show dog of today and the past.

I would also like to wait to give some other breeders such as AmazonAri ( who also shows in RL) a chance to speak.

- Nikki

I agree AAri should most certianly contribute. And hopefully some of the others will as well... it's not wholy relevent but i've felt for a long time that there are two few active members in this breed.. but thats for another conversation..

I compleatly understand your concern with how far we as a breed has come. Labradors are a good example of how calculating the color spectrum aginst the sorce dogs when a breed is already established can be devistating to the breed...

this is obviously because when admin applies the gene factors to just the source dogs what has occured in the bloodlines since is outside of our control because it is essentially like we're all been breeding blindly...

which in essence we have in regards to color...

my only debate to that would be this... if we establish the weaker gene to be higher in percentage in the source dogs then how might that also adversly effect the breed?

 LenaLee
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7/17/2008 5:05:35 AM reply with quote send message to LenaLee Object to Post

quote
posted by Stylish
The bottom line is, Do you want color to reflect and be realistic of shows in real life or not. Its not a matter of preferring one color over another as much as trying to make color on Shih Tzus in the game as realistic as possible. If I had my way on SD all Shih Tzu would be Red and White because thats my favorite coat color and I find gold n white washed out and prefer more color but that doesn't change the fact that 80% of the Shih tzu out there ( including the original shih tzus ) are gold and white plain and simple. The worry I have is that if we don't give gold and white the advantage of percentage that black being the dominate gene would overtake completely and we have none of the more common color. I would have been fine with these low percentage's if we were still dealing with source dogs and still working our way up to the Shih tzu we have achieved it would have been different however because we are so far ahead we should give the weaker colors the advantage so they don't get lost completely.

Remember this is SHOWdog not pet dog, the colors should reflect the show dog of today and the past.

I would also like to wait to give some other breeders such as AmazonAri ( who also shows in RL) a chance to speak.

- Nikki


Edited to add
"Yellow dogs were also more lion-like in appearance. The word "Shih Tzu" means "Lion" in Chinese. The Chinese tried to breed the Shih Tzu to resemble the lion, at least it was their idea of what a Lion looked like."

AMEN TO THAT!

 LenaLee
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7/17/2008 5:52:00 AM reply with quote send message to LenaLee Object to Post

Sure we have been breeding blindly in regards to color as we don't know what colors the dogs are.

But we have not been breeding blindly as to raising the SOP. Well maybe some are, but others are not.

We really need more gold and white than the b/w as being dominant we may have all black and white dogs, and no g/w left.

As for too few forumers, well in RL most shih tzu people don't like to share anyway, ROTFL!
 Cloud Nine Goldens
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7/17/2008 1:09:02 PM reply with quote send message to Cloud Nine Goldens Object to Post

I really do understand what everyone is saying. In a lot of ways, I agree on some levels with everyone. However, I do think that if we do put one color way up at 75-80%, it will be very hard to breed other colors back in. I don't think that gold and white and black and white should be too far apart. Black and white has the ability to "hide" some recessive genes, which could come out with breedings. Gold and whites are made up of mainly recessive genes, so they do not hide many other genes. Gold and Whites bred together will produce gold and whites. Black and whites bred together could produce other colors due to the recessive genes they could be carrying. So if we have both of those, we have a better chance of giving the other colors a true chance to exist. If gold and whites are 75%, the other colors can only share 25% of the starters. Chances are we would all end up with kennels that are full of gold and whites. For those that prefer gold and whites, that would be fine. However, I do think that everyone is aiming for realism and in reality I don't think there are many breeders that literally only have gold and whites. I would strongly suggest we hesitate before suggesting that one color take a majority of the starters, especially one with mainly recessive genes. I am afraid we would be kicking ourselves later when the other colors are near-extinct and extremely hard to bring back. I really suggest we look at some of the most recent proposed percentages, where gold and white and black and white are the majority, but they aren't too far away from the other colors. While I agree it is more fun if there is a challenge, I do believe that we shouldn't make it extremely difficult to get other colors, because we know in real-life that isn't true. Most breeders do not breed for only one color. Those of you that even just have real-life shih tzus, was the litter your shih tzu from all one color? I am sure most would say they were not. I also think we need to remember that Jeff did say he is not looking for accurate percentages, just percentages that the breeders can agree on. Right now, I do not see us even close to an agreement. The list of breeds ready for color is growing and right now we can't even get on the bottom of that list. So try to remember the big picture and what would best benefit the breed. We also need to remember that if we make it too difficult to breed color, it will be harder for us to get new breeders. New breeders will want to hear that "we have 14 different color possibilities, how exciting is that!" I don't think we can attract new breeders by saying that it is very rare to get a color besides gold and white. So my vote? My vote would be to have a percentage where gold and white and black and white do have the majority, but are relatively close in percentage. I also think we need to have at least one solid variety somewhere near the top, over 10% otherwise it will be impossible to breed solids. I do agree that solids are more rare, but they are making a comeback with the solid Blacks, Golds (typically with black masks), and Chocolate/Livers. So I don't think they should be so rare they are near impossible to breed.
 Cloud Nine Goldens
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7/17/2008 1:22:31 PM reply with quote send message to Cloud Nine Goldens Object to Post

quote
posted by LenaLee


We really need more gold and white than the b/w as being dominant we may have all black and white dogs, and no g/w left.


In order to simplify things, I thought I would give an example as to why we need both:

Black and whites carry the genetics:
[AsAs/Asay] [BB/Bb] [CC/Ccch] [DD/Dd] [EE/Ee/Eebr] [Gg/gg] sisi

Gold and whites carry the genetics:
ayay [BB/Bb/bb] cchcch [DD/Dd/dd] ee [GG/Gg/gg] sisi


Black and Whites can produce almost every parti possibility (depending on that specific dogs genes and what recessive genes they could be hiding), if not every parti. (They can only produce solids if bred to a solid, because they have the recessive gene sisi which leads to the white markings)

Gold and white have specific recessive genes: ayay; cchcch; ee; and sisi
This means if bred together, they can only produce gold and whites.

However, a black and white bred to a gold and white can produce every parti possible. Once again, this depends on what genes the black and white actually carries, as they can carry recessive genes that are not visible.

A Black and white could carry the genes:
AsayBbCcchDdEeGgsisi
This would allow them to produce puppies with the genes:
As Solid, Strong color
ay Muted color (Shaded with yellow)
B Black
b Liver
C Full Pigmentation
cch Chinchilla (Reduction of red and yellow pigmentation)
D Density of Black/brown pigmentation
d Dilution of black/brown pigmentation
E Intense color
e Blocks black and liver pigmentation in hair
G Silver
g Black stays black
si White parti markings
A black and white with the gene Eebr instead of Ee, could produce the ebr gene (brindle).

That is every possible gene, except the S gene, which leads to solid color, no spotting. So in terms of genetics, it would be our best bet to make sure we have enough black and whites.
 Arden_Farms
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7/17/2008 7:03:21 PM reply with quote send message to Arden_Farms Object to Post

Here is a suggestion... Lets make the B/W and G/W the same percent then the luck of the draw really will be the luck of the draw and no one can say that the colors we get are influenced by anything but out "blind breeding"

I am in prefernece of making Black the dominant gene because realisitically and scientifically Black IS the dominant gene...

That being said the argument has just gone to stupidity...





so to make everyone happy lets just make B/W and G/W equal and figure in a fair percent for the rest of the colors and be done.
 Cloud Nine Goldens
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7/17/2008 7:17:44 PM reply with quote send message to Cloud Nine Goldens Object to Post

Ok what would everyone think of this. Please simply say whether or not you agree. If you don't agree please give a specific reason why you don't disagree. Our breed has always been one that has gotten along fairly well and always willing to help each other out. Please do not let a simple discussion over colors end up separating the breed completely. The end result is the same, we will have colors.

Gold and White - 15%
Black and White - 15%
Silver and White - 9%
Brindle and White - 9%
Red and White - 8%
Gold - 7%
Black - 7%
Liver and White - 6%
Liver - 5%
Red - 5%
Brindle - 5%
Silver - 4%
Blue and White - 3%
Blue - 2%

I will update with a tally of votes regularly:
Agree:
Disagree:
 Arden_Farms
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7/17/2008 7:17:49 PM reply with quote send message to Arden_Farms Object to Post

Gold and White - 15%
Black and White - 15%
Brindle and White - 9%
Silver and White - 9%
Red and White - 8%
Gold - 7%
Black - 7%
Liver/Chocolate and White - 6%
Liver/Chocolate - 5%
Red - 5%
Brindle - 5%
Silver - 4%
Blue and White - 3%
Blue - 2%

That would be an estimate of the percentage as best i could figure making b/w and g/w equal


If thats not agreeable to everyone my last sugestion would be to take a vote


We could vote either higher gold and white, higher black and white or equal between black and white and gold and white...

I'm with marchen/cloud.... we need to stop arguing about which is which and make a choice as to what direstion we want to take.

What does everyone think?


(edited cause cloud was right i'd made 102% lol)
 Cloud Nine Goldens
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7/17/2008 7:19:05 PM reply with quote send message to Cloud Nine Goldens Object to Post

Sorry Arden you posted the same time as me. However, you do realize your percentages don't equal 100%? Mine is basically the same, with a few minor changes to make it equal 100%.
 Arden_Farms
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7/17/2008 7:19:32 PM reply with quote send message to Arden_Farms Object to Post

quote
posted by Cloud Nine Goldens
Ok

I will update with a tally of votes regularly:
Agree:
Disagree:

LOL thats too funny we posted the same thing at the same time... I think at the very least WE agree... lol
 Cloud Nine Goldens
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7/17/2008 7:21:02 PM reply with quote send message to Cloud Nine Goldens Object to Post

Do you want to edit your post then? Otherwise we are going to confuse the other breeders.
 Arden_Farms
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7/17/2008 7:25:21 PM reply with quote send message to Arden_Farms Object to Post

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posted by Cloud Nine Goldens
Do you want to edit your post then? Otherwise we are going to confuse the other breeders.
lol... wow it's like the psychic network on here tonight... i was editing my post right as you posted that....
 Cloud Nine Goldens
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7/17/2008 7:31:14 PM reply with quote send message to Cloud Nine Goldens Object to Post

No problem. happy :) I have been focusing on genetics so much this week in this breed and other breeds that I see genetic codes in my sleep! :P
 Arden_Farms
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7/17/2008 7:48:32 PM reply with quote send message to Arden_Farms Object to Post

quote
posted by Cloud Nine Goldens
No problem. happy :) I have been focusing on genetics so much this week in this breed and other breeds that I see genetic codes in my sleep! :P
Yea I know what you mean. I've been reading all these scientific journals on genetics.. it's so terribly fasinating... although when you bring up to your friends in RL that your studing gentics and start talking about it in detail they really do look at you funny... lol..

alot of what i've read i havent posted here because i'm trying to stay focused on the fact that we're simply trying to deside on a genetic color code for admins algorithum...

I know the debate is quite frsutranting because i know everyones ultimate goal is to just get on the list for color in the game... but i really strongly feel that saying "this color is popular so it should be made dominant" is just rediculous when we're talking about genetics and genetics are very clear that black is a dominant gene while gold resessive and so on....



Just abit off topic i posted this in the off topic forum...

www.showdog.com/login/philboard_read.aspx?id=176220

it is talking about the genetic line from wolves to modern day dog breeds and i just thought it was outstandingly intresting... I didn't post the link to the site because it's one you have to be a member of to read but still really intresting none the less...

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