.com Forum · Real Show Dogs

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posted by griffi
I'm a firm believer than you need to beable to tell a dog not to do something because there are lots of things in the world that my dog would consider better than anything I can offer (eg. chasing a squirrel, meeting a new person). And if I'm going to trust my dog off-leash where I cannot physically stop them from doing so I need to beable to tell them No and them to know that No means No.

The same should be true of choke chain corrections, you should not be giving them over and over and over a few times should be enough for the dog to get the message, I should have mentioned above that you should tell the dog "no" or "ahah" or some disciplinary word when you give a correction so that you can transition to just the word when in situations when the collar is not desired/possible.

grif,

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Agreed and i am a user of disciplinary words to my dog to.

~Kate

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posted by TCrown

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posted by WeimsRus
Loup, Grif, great posts! Now if ppl would only read them. These are all training AIDS not for replacing TRAINING but to AID in the TRAINING hopefully making it easier and quicker. Used incorrectly they can cause injury to the dog.

It's all for the breed, Weims.

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Sorry Weims, I guess I should have made it clearer then I did if it sounds like I'm saying any of the collars will fix an issue by themselves. By saying a correction, I figured this made it obvious enough that a person training was needed as a collar can not correct on it's own, but hey maybe that's just me since I've been training for too many years I forget to simplify it enough for the average person.

TCrown

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K no offense ment, but I have bigger issues with these collars than an E-Collar and all of them have their downfalls if used incorrectly. If you are going to use a corrective collar on your dog. Please get proper training on the use of these collars.

ETA, Just kind of went through this thread and there has been some great advice given here on the proper use of these types of training aids. There is something I would like to point out though. Your ultimate goal when using these is to get your dog to walk correctly or perform without the use of these. It is really easy to create a dog that is "collar wise. This is a condition where the dog will only perform as expected when this training aid is in use. It is more common with E-Collars than prong or choke style collar, but have seen it happen when people are inexperianced in training dogs. I have a 2 dog E-Collar system with one collar being orange and the other black. Bella knows just from the color of the collar what is going on. Orange and we are going to the woods and black is either her or maggie is being a putz and not listening when offlead in the yard. All I have to do is pull out the black collar and set it on the table and the unwanted behavior stops. The orange collar gets excitement and Bella sitting by the back door.

Before anyone starts, this dog has only been stimulated twice at the lowest setting for it to get a response from the dog. The page function where the collar only vibrates is the only function I have needed for several years now. Haven't even turned the shock function on for longer than I can remember.

It's all for the breed, Weims.

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posted by TCrown

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posted by Featherrun
Most of you are young people on this list. When you were a child, and you did something wrong...did your parents hit you for it? If they did, did you stop doing it....or, maybe just do the wrong thing when you were happy or excited or forgot that you weren't allowed to do it?
Choke chains are a "punishment" type of correction. Sure, "corrections" such as choke chains do fix a problem, but it erodes the relationship with your dog. Many, many studies have been done that prove that dogs and most animals (people too) do MUCH better by ignoring the bad, and praising the good....it's that simple.
What if you don't have time to stand still until your dog quits pulling, you say? Well, there are other much kinder leashes and halters than a painful chain.

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Well, there are differing opinions on what sort of reinforcers to use, as it sounds like you prefer positive only and I prefer positive & negative and I'm sure others on SD have even more alternatives. IMO, if you only offer a cookie every time your dog does something correctly, but do nothing any time the dog does something incorrectly, then your dog will only behave so long as it wants the cookie more so then whatever else it is interested in at the time. Kind of like child raising, but I know there are also differing opinions on that as well.

TCrown

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I also use a combination of positive (i.e. clicker, gentle leaders, etc.) and negative (i.e. choke & pinch collars) collars with my dog, incorporating tips I like from both worlds. My obedience instructor is very traditional and I've noticed that my dog doesn't always do well with some of the traditional obedience methods (i.e. he'll shy away or start to shut down), but the pinch/choke collar is one thing that does work with him to get his attention (because he is EASILY distracted at times.) He is also not highly food or toy motivated, which is why not every positive reinforcement methods works with him. Additionally, those "kinder" leashes (if this is referring to gentle leaders/headcollars) are not allowed in the obedience ring, so we don't practice with them, whereas choke collars (not prongs) are (though, once you're beyond Novice, you aren't on leash anyways, so collar becomes less important.)

I do feel that the "kinder" leashes only cover up the fact that the dog is unable to walk on a loose leash, but they do have their place. I mean, it gives the average owner, who may not spend time daily training their dog, faster results (i.e. "I don't want my dog to pull me". Plus, a gentle leader (at least the harness variety; I've heard stories about the headcollar varieties) has less of a chance of hurting the dog than a choke collar if it gets used improperly. (Dog head collars seem to be based on the horse headcollar/halter...and horse head anatomy--specifically eye location--is considerably different than dog head anatomy.)

I wouldn't consider a gentle leader a "training tool" though because, as I've already stated, they pretty much just cover up the problem. Case in point: my dog. He is capable of heeling on a loose leash (and off leash), but will also take advantage of "opportunities" to pull, like when my Mom or Dad walk him. When they stay at their house, I leave a gentle leader harness, so that he will not pull them all over the place. I could leave his pinch collar, but I don't because my Mom is very inconsistent when it comes to obedience (i.e. she's guilty of the same problem the OP mentioned with her dogs.)

I am not sure punnishment is all that useful in teaching heelwork personally.... a dog can only pull if the handler is pulling in the other direction!!!

With regards to actually teaching a dog where exactly you want it to walk why not do just that!?!?!?! Positive Punnishment and negative reinforcement *may* work but there are 1001 wrong places to be and only one right one. So much quicker to just teach the dog where you actually want it rather than hauling it into position. I see so many dogs which hate heelwork as a result of harsh/painful corrections which is a shame.

Food rewards should never be allowed to become a bribe...... progress from lure to reward then replace with lifestyle rewards. Simple!


To the poster above whom mentioned a headcollar only masks the problem I agree to a certain extent but no more than with any other piece of corrective equipment.
I am getting to the point where during training sessions I prefer to lose even the leash asap, where it is safe to do so, as even this I am finding too many clients are using as a crutch...... ANY piece of equipment can become so and harsh/painful items are no exception.

I also want to point out that in a training/behaviour modification scenario a punnishment by very definition is only a punnishment if it causes the problem behaviour to decrease or stop anything else is at best pointless and at worse just plain abuse.
I am not in any way shape or form a positive reinforcement purist but I have banned checks from my classes now having watched too many people outrightly abusing their dogs with them. Thet are imo one of the most abused pieces of equipment.
I have watched other trainers classes and handlers using them and counted no fewer corrections at the end of the session over 10 minutes than at the start........ if this was punnishment and it was working people would not keep having to use it!!!

Thanks Wayward for putting things so well. I thought the OP was referring to a dog being "walked"....not trained. So yes, while halti and gentle leaders are also a "crutch", they have their place in raising a dog until you can get that dog's attention most of the time, and until they learn what you want of them on a walk.

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posted by Super Uber Kennels
Additionally, those "kinder" leashes..... are not allowed in the obedience ring, so we don't practice with them, whereas choke collars..... are (though, once you're beyond Novice, you aren't on leash anyways)

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This is very interesting statement...... I LOVE judging an obedience dog with a check chain on in the ring for heelwork EVERY correction is highlighted for me

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posted by Wayward Kennels

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posted by Super Uber Kennels
Additionally, those "kinder" leashes..... are not allowed in the obedience ring, so we don't practice with them, whereas choke collars..... are (though, once you're beyond Novice, you aren't on leash anyways)

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This is very interesting statement...... I LOVE judging an obedience dog with a check chain on in the ring for heelwork EVERY correction is highlighted for me

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Your statement is just as interesting! I'd be interested in seeing how a correction is highlighted on a dog wearing a check chain who is heeling off leash in the open ring.

Regarding novice, I was taught the leash should hang, forming a "J"--in other words, the leash should have plenty of slack, regardless of whether the collar is a check chain, buckle, etc. because that is where you will lose tons of points in novice. But again...once you're in open, there is no leash with which to make a correction.

ETA: I do understand the irony of a check chain in the ring with the irony being that one's dog should already be trained prior to entering the ring so there shouldn't be a need to correct the dog while in the ring. (Some might say, that is what matches are for.)

Personally, I think chokes are great - when used CORRECTLY.

At a little over 5ft I have always felt slightly ill-at ease when walkin my over-sized Lab without one. I suffered from severe spinal problems as a child and just cn't risk a sudden jerk that might put me in bed for a week even now.

We introduced our Lab to it after he had learnt to walk nicely, not to heel, but not pulling in any way and sit at junctions etc and all his training was positive.

However, I walk the dog with just a choke as if something was to happen I feel safe in the fact that I could give him a quick pull to remind him to keep his attention on me whilst not putting me at risk of being dragged into a road etc.

For those of you who say your dog pulls and seems to like choking...can you honestly say your dog knows the relationship between his 'fun' walking tools and being strangled if he pulls? And like the posts before - they definately can cause damage to the throat.

Positive training works much better, and until the training is 100% it would be a good idea to invest in a harness that is specially designed to pull the legs to give the dog the sensation it is being lifted up as I have seen this work very well on friends' dogs.

Personally, they work well on dogs that are already trained as a safety precaution - especially if you own a large dog and are on the small side like me.

Thanks

Kat

Harnesses just encourage more pulling. They are made for dogs to pull something. Case in point: you don't see a dog running the Iditarod in a collar.

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posted by LoupGarou
Harnesses just encourage more pulling. They are made for dogs to pull something. Case in point: you don't see a dog running the Iditarod in a collar.

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Exactly. That is the reason my dog runs in a harness when we run. (We run canicross-style.)

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posted by LoupGarou
No tool teaches a dog proper behavior. If a dog constantly pulls at a leash it will do damage to itself, no matter what tool is being used to "walk" it. The most important training tool is at the other end of the leash. If the owner is unfamiliar with a training tool, is incompetent with its use, or simply does not care about the training being done, then the dog will never make any improvement. Those owners usually resort to head halters to give them the semblance of control, since "the stupid collar didn't work."

The dog was pulling into the collar because it was being reinforced to do so--by pulling, it was being rewarded with forward movement. If the owner would stand still until the leash went slack or would change direction from where the dog wanted to go until the dog "checked in" with him or her and agreed to go in the owner's desired direction, then it's likely it would learn relatively quickly not to pull.

There is nothing wrong with a slip collar, with a prong collar, or with an electronic collar in the hands of a competent trainer. They are just inanimate objects and cannot harm an animal through their own devices. Every dog, however, needs a tool appropriate to them with which to train. I train my Toy Fox Terrier, Beau, obedience on a chain slip collar, my mixed breed, Jack, on a limited slip collar, and my collie, Glitter, on a flat buckle collar. I had one little TFT that really needed a toy-sized prong collar if I had pursued obedience training (he lived out his life as a couch potato and biscuit-eater, though. )

Different tools for different dogs--and all of them happy to do what they do.

Sorry to be so long-winded, but access to training tools is an important topic in my opinion. When people start talking about how "cruel" a particular device is over another, it just leads to bans and to limited choices. That's not good for the dogs or for the people training them.

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Loup my favorite quote "The most important training tool is at the other end of the leash. If the owner is unfamiliar with a training tool, is incompetent with its use, or simply does not care about the training being done, then the dog will never make any improvement. "

I prefer using choke chains only I think of them as training collars. I keep lead loose, and second dogs starting to pull ahead I "jingle" the chain by shaking leash up and down and same instant doing 180 and walking the other way. So using the noise as correction more then the jerk. Of course the key is also keeping it high on top part of the neck, I also do running conversation with him or her when walking next to me, telling what a good dog... yada yada.
I also use verbal correction sometimes prior to jingle, sometimes after, I only give a SHARP correction when a dogs doing a life threatening move, ie habitual car chaser that knows sit stay, but flys as a car drives past.

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posted by Super Uber Kennels

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posted by Wayward Kennels

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posted by Super Uber Kennels
Additionally, those "kinder" leashes..... are not allowed in the obedience ring, so we don't practice with them, whereas choke collars..... are (though, once you're beyond Novice, you aren't on leash anyways)

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This is very interesting statement...... I LOVE judging an obedience dog with a check chain on in the ring for heelwork EVERY correction is highlighted for me

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Your statement is just as interesting! I'd be interested in seeing how a correction is highlighted on a dog wearing a check chain who is heeling off leash in the open ring.

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Beginner and Novice (and unless a Championship Show also Pre Beginner) tests all have on leash heelwork. It is the two begginer classes that you tend to see the most corrections as this is where you get your inexperienced handlers.

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Regarding novice, I was taught the leash should hang, forming a "J"--in other words, the leash should have plenty of slack, regardless of whether the collar is a check chain, buckle, etc. because that is where you will lose tons of points in novice.

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This is correct and negates the whole point of a checkchain in the ring at all imo why train at all with a piece of equipment you can't use in the ring without haemoraging points?
The dog should maintain a consistent distance from your leg without inhibiting the handler..... with careful observation a check on the dog will help highlight changes in positioning also....... which is actually why a lot of top handlers over here use one to fine tune their heelwork positioning....... where this is the case you wouldn't expect to see one on the dog until it is already well trained to 'heel' and this is not the usage being described in this thread.
Novice is only 15 points for heel on lead but in a class that is probably the MOST competetive of all and with the exception of C hardest to win out of you would be surprised how often those 15 points have made the difference.


Hope that explains my comment a little better.


I am curious if your reasoning for not using a halti etc is that they are 'not allowed in the ring' is why you/your instructor do not also apply to checks?
The Obedience ring is not the place for corrections and nor is heelwork on leash forever. Using a check imo negates your whole reasoning for not wanting to use a less harsh management tool/training aid but each to their own I suppose, no two people are cookie cutters and checks make life easier as a judge.

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posted by LoupGarou
Harnesses just encourage more pulling. They are made for dogs to pull something. Case in point: you don't see a dog running the Iditarod in a collar.

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Static harnesses are also very easy for the dog to back out of (as are checks for the savy dog and not so savy owner)

I tend not to recomend static harnesses but have used a corrective harness as a management tool in cases where I have felt the dog is SUCH a habitual puller it has effected muscle development and ability for the dog to balance itself without leaning on the collar....... I prefer to use no training aids at all and tend not to with clients to train with but you would be surprised how many dogs I get through which actually are not bringing their quarters under them properly when they walk and are throwing their weight forwards to lean on their collar. Most can be taught by training alone but I have had a handful which I have got to put a corrective harness on at home for a while whilst we work through a training programe.

I do tracking so is the last piece of equipment I want to stick on my dogs and something to be aware of potentially with clients but other trainers do tell me they get around this by using a static leather harness and corrective material one for example.


I do firmly believe training naked is the best, fastest and most reliable way. (The dog not the handler I mean)

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posted by Wayward Kennels
Hope that explains my comment a little better.

I am curious if your reasoning for not using a halti etc is that they are 'not allowed in the ring' is why you/your instructor do not also apply to checks?

The Obedience ring is not the place for corrections and nor is heelwork on leash forever. Using a check imo negates your whole reasoning for not wanting to use a less harsh management tool/training aid but each to their own I suppose, no two people are cookie cutters and checks make life easier as a judge.

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When I was taking the puppy class at Petsmart (because my club doesn't offer puppy classes), the instructor suggested a gentle leader head collar for my pup. I tried it, actually eager to see the outcome because I had seen the benefits work on my friend's dog.) My dog hated it! I knew there was a period of adjustment and for the next 2 weeks I tried to "wean" him off a regular collar so that he was wearing the headcollar full-time, using treats when he didn't paw at it. However, he never got over the pawing and in the puppy classes that followed, I couldn't get him to do anything. Additionally, he just seemed depressed in general whenever it was on and he wasn't pawing at it. He did not look like a happy pup at all.

I know headcollars CAN work (because I saw it in my friend's dog), but it wasn't the right piece of training equipment. The gentle leader harness (the kind where the leash attaches in the front) was a much better solution for my dog. (...And for clarification, this is NOT the harness my dog wears when we run--we use an X-back harness for that.) This article pretty much sums up my view on headcollars/haltis:

flyingdogpress.com/content/view/54/97/

Regarding my instructors, as stated previously, they teach towards a more traditional training style of obedience similar to that found in the book "The Complete Open Obedience Course" by Blanche Saunders. I am not saying it's the only way to train or the best way--just that it is the way they do it.

I am fairly new to the sport and I have found their knowledge to be quite helpful in getting me to where I am with my dog. They have 30 years experience in training dogs (obedience, hunting, agility, & judging), so being the "newbie", I'm not going to question their methods. At the same time, I don't always agree with everything they suggest, but I listen anyways. (I am a sponge--I like taking it all in--the good, the bad, the traditional methods, the newer clicker methods, etc.) As I previously stated, they have suggested methods that turned out to be too harsh for my dog (I can tell because his personality will change) and in those cases, I find an alternative way to teach it (usually involving a clicker.) With that being said, they are not so traditional that they will not allow students to use clickers or regular collars in class. One student does the "warm up" heeling with a clicker and others do wear regular collars.

I am not against positive reinforcement. I actually like trying clicker stuff with my dog and I love the Control Unleashed book. I also enjoy Pat Parelli's Natural Horsemanship methods. I do not have my own horse, but if I did, I'd be a Parelli student.

Sorry to the original poster! This is so far off your original topic of "a dog who is pulling while wearing a choke collar"

In my experience, chokes work with some dogs if you know how to use it, but I wouldn't even think of using it with some of the dogs I've had. The dog we've got now, I use a choke chain on him and will until I'm confident in his leash manners, it's just easier for me to manage him and train him than with a regular collar or any other type of thing. I've had dogs like my Dane who I would never have it on, he just never needed it and it would have been useless, he wasn't a pully dog and even so, he was trusted off leash.

Depends on the dog, depends on if you know how to use it. That's just my opinion. I'm not for against them entirely, I don't like prongs but again, I've seen them used on some dogs and they have their place.

Em

I like using "choke collars" myself, sisters Cav was trained on choke, now uses limited slip collar. On friends dogs I talked her into using a choke on the yorkie, whos better but still insists on pulling, we tried to find a head halter that would fit her but she wiggles out of all.
Also on harnesses they do make no pull harnesses, no matter what the tool like everyone says its the person on the other end whos the real tool or lack there of.
Hailey is a puzzle, she is better but still tends to go when she wants, does pull LESS but does not stay at heel like her chis. Then I know she doesnt work with her, and because of pulling she tends to not take her unless I am with her. They do have a HUGE yard to run around in, but I feel walks are an important interaction, sides I enjoy them.

For me personally, any kind of collar that isn't a simple, click around the neck and attach a leash to is kind of a waste of time. Some people swear by chokes, half chokes, head collars, prong collars, e-stim etc, which is fine for them but not something I would ever use.

My dog doesn't wear a collar the vast majority of the time.

I walk him with a simple clippped together on his back type harness and he trots along quite sedately. Slight pressure on the left, right or back causes him to move in those directions and thats what I want. If he gets overstimulated and wants to lunge at a dog I can lift his front feet off the ground with the harness and pull him around to break focus. He simply can't pull while wearing it and it's padded and always loose so no rub or burns to his skin. It definitely does not encourage him to pull.

I prefer Halti to collars. Collars I find are making my dog choke when he insists on pulling ahead and Halti works best but he finds it annoying and trys to loop it off by rubbing it against things. I've been using it on my dog for 2 months now and hes taking his time getting used to.

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posted by dogloverxx
I prefer Halti to collars. Collars I find are making my dog choke when he insists on pulling ahead and Halti works best but he finds it annoying and trys to loop it off by rubbing it against things. I've been using it on my dog for 2 months now and hes taking his time getting used to.

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The only trouble with Haltis, Gentle Leaders, etc. is the safety issue. They're around the dog's head, so heaven forbid the handler should trip and fall, the dog's head will get snapped downward, leading to potentially fatal neck/spinal injuries.

Not only that, but the dog isn't really learning how to walk nicely on the leash in most cases. As soon as the Halti comes off, the dog starts pulling again. So it's really just a temporary fix to the problem.

Once saw someone driving a car with the window rolled down, and the dog's head sticking out the window with a Halti on. If the car hadn't been going so fast, those people would've gotten an earful.