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 Black Raven Kennels
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5/4/2023 6:44:00 PM reply with quote send message to Black Raven Kennels Object to Post

Well it would be nice if these people did not take up every single show on purpose to prevent anyone else from trying to enjoy showing and evaluate which of their dogs are better for their breeding programs.

None of these current high sop kennels are helping the folks who appeared with low sops because these people were inactive at the time. Instead, these higher kennels came back, and are hogging every show, making it unbalanced and honestly they need to knock it off. If you politely inquire about studs or sales, you either get ignored or ripped into. None of these people ever made their lines from scratch, they all started out with help from others.

Sure, it's not breaking rules to hog every single show and to stack it for themselves since most other players are boycotting to prevent finishing these peoples' dogs, but it's downright nasty and childish really.

This is happening in Alaskan Klee Kais, American Eskimos, starting to happen in Kooikers, and I am sure there's other breeds with people pulling the same crap.

Simple solution-quit taking up ALL the damned shows since these people (or person since it follows the same behavior patterns) don't want to help-which yes, is their right to do so, but they don't need to be an ass about the shows.

We have a right to vent just as anyone else does, if it was fair gameplay that wouldn't be a problem. That's not how it is though and I do hope these people read this.

I honestly don't care how this makes me look, but I am sick of seeing this happen. I play in a few breeds that are suffering from these ego kennels and they do try to run us out. One kennel DID run my daughter off the game by being so nasty to her.

I'm not here to fight but I've had enough. I won't run away from these breeds. We're making progress but damn it is so annoying.
 Comet Poodles
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5/4/2023 7:57:06 PM reply with quote send message to Comet Poodles Object to Post

I understand the problem - In 2019, I started a user in Miniature Poodles. When I came back after a break, I had some stock left that was not up to the current show standard and I contacted the same user. They ignored me. I like showing on this game and if I can't be competitive, I don't see the point. I sold most of my stock to a wonderful player who has done an excellent job in keeping the breed alive and available to all.

It's a shame, but you all are better than me to keep trying!
 KOTAKAI
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5/4/2023 8:25:44 PM reply with quote send message to KOTAKAI Object to Post

this post has been edited 1 time(s)

quote
posted by Comet Poodles
Not that I like or agree with closed kennels, but what do you expect Jeff to do? It's always been an option for game play, even before this game shrunk in numbers.

edit: always spelling

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Last edited by Comet Poodles on 5/4/2023 1:15:32 PM

I did not say I expected Jeff to do anything. I simply passed on his exact words to me. Yes people can play closed kennels if they wish, but what we are discussing here is unbalanced breeds that had gone extinct and were restarted with source breeders only to have one person show up with HIGH SOP dogs and then play closed off, leaving everyone in the dust.

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Last edited by KOTAKAI on 5/4/2023 8:30:32 PM
 Black Raven Kennels
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5/4/2023 8:54:06 PM reply with quote send message to Black Raven Kennels Object to Post

Closed kennels, that's their own thing. As long as they are not hogging every single show so they can be the only one winning, as if that unlocks some kind of achievement other than the jack ass award lol.

I fully understand if a closed kennel started from source and only worked with their own lines, not involving anyone else's. By all means they worked hard to not share and I don't blame them. But in these breeds having this problem, that isn't the case.

What I prefer to do is make these people show against themselves. There are also specific judges that I will enter as I have taken a best in show in my low sop Klee Kai, over their 97 something one. Knowing the judges preferences, does give an advantage and well, makes me laugh. I love drunk wins wink ;) Plus, handlers don't tend to matter with these kinds of judges. Been having to do this for the last 4 years.
 Black Raven Kennels
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5/4/2023 9:01:33 PM reply with quote send message to Black Raven Kennels Object to Post

Been thinking about making a list of the breeds that are unfortunately plagued by this type of playing, not naming kennels that do it but recommending kennels that do try to help within that breed. Figured this could possibly help folks who are trying to finish a dog in every breed so they aren't surprised when they get a (usually) nasty response from the higher sop kennels. Not at the top of my list of things to do though. I do get messages from others trying these breeds (that I'm also in) asking why those people are mean. I can't answer that for them.

And yes, multiple folks have asked these kennels if they could please limit how many shows they take up, and leave at least 2 5.00 shows available. Instead they just stacked them all except the 20.00 ones. So yeah, that's what's been going on for multiple breeds. Figured maybe others should know about it before finding out the hard way and getting discouraged. sad :(
 EntropyDobermans
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5/6/2023 10:55:58 AM reply with quote send message to EntropyDobermans Object to Post

It really is annoying. I always put every dog up for stud asap, list all decent puppies for sale. I'm in multiple breeds where the top SOP kennels refuse to even put dogs up for stud, much less sell puppies. And one of these kennels, when I first started in the breed, even messaged me and said something like "let's work together to bring the breed SOP back up" - well, so much for working together!
 KOTAKAI
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5/12/2023 11:23:39 AM reply with quote send message to KOTAKAI Object to Post

oh COME ON! Now we have FOUR kennels in Klee Kai all with very high sop dogs, NONE who share studs or puppies, ALL FOUR are the same pedigree. THis has gone far enough. I say we source breeders stop showing until we are competitive. Is this ONE person with FOUR klee kai kennels? Unfortunately I cannot prove that. I'm DISGUSTED with the unfair tactics. I'm PISSED.
 Sunwing
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5/12/2023 1:47:37 PM reply with quote send message to Sunwing Object to Post

quote
posted by KOTAKAI
I say we source breeders stop showing until we are competitive.
That's sort of what I do now. In my Cardi kennel I was showing for a bit to get some Champions on my source dogs. I was able to work it out so I would enter shows right before the deadline and not have to worry about competing against high SOP dogs, but that didn't work with my sleep schedule (SD is an hour behind me) and it wasn't generating enough income to be worth it. There's a few breeds I'm waiting to break into, and one breed I stopped showing since the other kennels are just starting out and I don't want to take away any competition.
 Rhoslyn Kennels
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5/12/2023 2:22:51 PM reply with quote send message to Rhoslyn Kennels Object to Post

I have been doing a homebred in every breed and I have come across a quite a few breeds who dont offer sales or studs but Alaskan Klee Kai is the only breed that I have seen players continually complaining about in posts and, it seems, on kennel pages. Do you think that if the sniping stopped the other players would eventually be more willing to share? Also, do you think that these posts harm the breed?
I dont know how many people would actually check what is said in these posts but there is actually only the same three kennels with high sop dogs as there has been for months and not now four. Checking on shows, the lower sop dogs have been picking up points, majors and finishing so how can it be said that there is unfair tactics stopping low sop dogs from gaining points? My fear is that Jeff will get fed up with these posts and close the game down completely like he did with one of the horse games. That would be so unfair to so many players and all because some dont like the way someone else plays.



 XiZang
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5/12/2023 2:24:59 PM reply with quote send message to XiZang Object to Post

My biggest issue (in one of my other kennels) is the COI. I breed as much as I can but I have several breeds in that kennel so am limited in the number. There is only 1 public stud available and I have already overbred to him. I need to dilute my line but doesn't look like it's going to happen. I guess I will just keep breeding and eventually maybe some other dogs will join the party.
 KOTAKAI
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5/12/2023 2:44:33 PM reply with quote send message to KOTAKAI Object to Post

quote
posted by Rhoslyn Kennels
I have been doing a homebred in every breed and I have come across a quite a few breeds who dont offer sales or studs but Alaskan Klee Kai is the only breed that I have seen players continually complaining about in posts and, it seems, on kennel pages. Do you think that if the sniping stopped the other players would eventually be more willing to share? Also, do you think that these posts harm the breed?
I dont know how many people would actually check what is said in these posts but there is actually only the same three kennels with high sop dogs as there has been for months and not now four. Checking on shows, the lower sop dogs have been picking up points, majors and finishing so how can it be said that there is unfair tactics stopping low sop dogs from gaining points? My fear is that Jeff will get fed up with these posts and close the game down completely like he did with one of the horse games. That would be so unfair to so many players and all because some dont like the way someone else plays.




I just rejoined so if there was strife before, it was not including me. There ARE four kennels now with high sop and they are all the same pedigree. I would happily name them , but since you seem to be studying it this topic, you can go look and if you really want to know why *I* am angry, go all the way back to the early generations of that pedigree and note my kennel name. I do agree that this person is likely being spiteful. so why ask ME if MY comments hurt the game> why not ask THAT person who is in position to aid but prefers to be spiteful. I should also reveal here that my kennel is behind pretty much all the breed these days so it's a slap in my face. You have to go far back to when I played 15 years ago, but my dogs ARE behind the high sop players. My solution is simple, I'm going bye bye. I deserve my opinion. Whether you like it or not. I was a LONG time player and it was NEVER like this before. I will NOT be renewing when my year runs out. I may not even stick around that long. It stinks in here. And they to be called out for stating a problem exists, is just the last straw.
 Solanin
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5/12/2023 2:47:34 PM reply with quote send message to Solanin Object to Post

quote
posted by XiZang
My biggest issue (in one of my other kennels) is the COI. I breed as much as I can but I have several breeds in that kennel so am limited in the number. There is only 1 public stud available and I have already overbred to him. I need to dilute my line but doesn't look like it's going to happen. I guess I will just keep breeding and eventually maybe some other dogs will join the party.
I've come across that with a few of my smaller breeds, especially Bloodhounds. But was luckily able to get help from another kennel. Not so much with Boxers. There's really nothing in circulation so I just keep adding source dogs and breeding them with some better SOP dogs I was able to snag lol. Any way you could do that? It would mess with the SOP but in the long run you'd open up the lines.
 CzarinaKennels
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5/12/2023 3:03:18 PM reply with quote send message to CzarinaKennels Object to Post

I have a tip for those dealing with small gene pools, hold onto some of your older dogs and breed back every few generations. Weirdly it actually helps lower COI and gives you more diversity! I do it in some of my low activity breeds to keep my coi under while still being able to breed and increase SOP.

Honestly I’ve really only had super positive interactions with pretty much everyone I’ve encountered on here. Even those who are not willing to open their kennels when I reach out, I just view it as their choice and move on. I completely understand that that alone is not the frustration some people are facing. But still I think the way we frame things to ourselves can really impact our experience. So I try to do my best to keep myself positive! I am sorry some people in some breeds are having a negative experience though! I have had some amazing kennels help me start out in so many new breeds so there are some amazing people willing to help.
 Solanin
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5/12/2023 3:06:20 PM reply with quote send message to Solanin Object to Post

quote
go all the way back to the early generations of that pedigree and note my kennel name. - I should also reveal here that my kennel is behind pretty much all the breed these days so it's a slap in my face. You have to go far back to when I played 15 years ago, but my dogs ARE behind the high sop players.
Personally, and I hate stoking a fire here lol, but I've never really been a fan of that mentality.

In one of my breeds there are a few VERY common dogs behind almost every pedigree. I know theres a breeder on here who is very proud of that (and they should be it's cool!). But you know who is sitting like 50 generations behind those dogs? My dogs lol. And even further behind my dogs are two other kennels who started before me.

But at some point it stops being the founding breeders line. My personal opinion is after like 5 generations it's the new breeder's line because they were the ones who made all the choices regarding what dogs to pair and what puppies to keep.

K was the kennel all my foundation dogs came from, but that was over 10 years ago. In no way are my dogs K dogs now because K had no hand in the direction I chose to go. K didn't help me pick pairings or puppies. I did that. So even if K is the founder of my line, it's not K's line anymore. It stopped being K's line like 50 generations ago.
 KOTAKAI
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5/12/2023 3:48:55 PM reply with quote send message to KOTAKAI Object to Post

quote
posted by Solanin
quote
go all the way back to the early generations of that pedigree and note my kennel name. - I should also reveal here that my kennel is behind pretty much all the breed these days so it's a slap in my face. You have to go far back to when I played 15 years ago, but my dogs ARE behind the high sop players.
Personally, and I hate stoking a fire here lol, but I've never really been a fan of that mentality.

In one of my breeds there are a few VERY common dogs behind almost every pedigree. I know theres a breeder on here who is very proud of that (and they should be it's cool!). But you know who is sitting like 50 generations behind those dogs? My dogs lol. And even further behind my dogs are two other kennels who started before me.

But at some point it stops being the founding breeders line. My personal opinion is after like 5 generations it's the new breeder's line because they were the ones who made all the choices regarding what dogs to pair and what puppies to keep.

K was the kennel all my foundation dogs came from, but that was over 10 years ago. In no way are my dogs K dogs now because K had no hand in the direction I chose to go. K didn't help me pick pairings or puppies. I did that. So even if K is the founder of my line, it's not K's line anymore. It stopped being K's line like 50 generations ago.

I have no issue with that concept
 KOTAKAI
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5/12/2023 3:50:07 PM reply with quote send message to KOTAKAI Object to Post

quote
posted by Solanin
quote
posted by XiZang
My biggest issue (in one of my other kennels) is the COI. I breed as much as I can but I have several breeds in that kennel so am limited in the number. There is only 1 public stud available and I have already overbred to him. I need to dilute my line but doesn't look like it's going to happen. I guess I will just keep breeding and eventually maybe some other dogs will join the party.
I've come across that with a few of my smaller breeds, especially Bloodhounds. But was luckily able to get help from another kennel. Not so much with Boxers. There's really nothing in circulation so I just keep adding source dogs and breeding them with some better SOP dogs I was able to snag lol. Any way you could do that? It would mess with the SOP but in the long run you'd open up the lines.

No there is no way to do that. I would have loved to use my old stock but I came back after too long and they are all "dead".
 KOTAKAI
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5/12/2023 3:54:24 PM reply with quote send message to KOTAKAI Object to Post

I just have one more comment and I'm done. I fh'd my klee since I do not wish to participate in the current atmosphere. Having said that, I wish to reiterate here that several source players politely asked for help and were rebuked. Personally, I very respectfully asked for help and was told it was coming. When a week later nothing happened, I asked again, thinking maybe they forgot . The response I got bad was venomous. So no, I will not be expecting anything more than spiteful ugliness to ensue in the future. If it seems like a lot of complaints occur in one breed, rather than dissing the last person to complain, maybe we should consider that there might be an issue since multiple players have reached a boiling point. My end point has been reached and I did what I had to do. On to something else now.
 Rhoslyn Kennels
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5/12/2023 4:13:30 PM reply with quote send message to Rhoslyn Kennels Object to Post

this post has been edited 1 time(s)

Wow such anger towards someone who only made a few suggestions. I actually feel sorry for the high sop kennels after reading that.

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Last edited by Rhoslyn Kennels on 5/12/2023 4:15:15 PM
 Rhoslyn Kennels
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5/12/2023 4:21:39 PM reply with quote send message to Rhoslyn Kennels Object to Post

quote
posted by KOTAKAI
I just have one more comment and I'm done. I fh'd my klee since I do not wish to participate in the current atmosphere. Having said that, I wish to reiterate here that several source players politely asked for help and were rebuked. Personally, I very respectfully asked for help and was told it was coming. When a week later nothing happened, I asked again, thinking maybe they forgot . The response I got bad was venomous. So no, I will not be expecting anything more than spiteful ugliness to ensue in the future. If it seems like a lot of complaints occur in one breed, rather than dissing the last person to complain, maybe we should consider that there might be an issue since multiple players have reached a boiling point. My end point has been reached and I did what I had to do. On to something else now.
In an earlier comment you said that you were ignored now you are saying that you received a 'venomous' response. Not dissing but cant dont understand how it can be both?
 Black Raven Kennels
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5/12/2023 5:50:46 PM reply with quote send message to Black Raven Kennels Object to Post

The crap with Klees has been going on for over 5 years. It's nothing new. All 5 shows are always taken up by high sop dogs on purpose, leaving no chance for source dogs to even compete to see how well they will do for breeding traits. We've asked for help, we've asked for ONE 5.00 show to have. Nope. I rack up wins because I know which judges will put up a source dog so I take full advantage of it because I have to.

How am I supposed to know which dogs have better traits if I can't show them to see their progress over the others of their range...

I treat people how they treat me. Just how I am.

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The third obedience title is a UD, or "Utility Dog", which is earned through competition in the Utility obedience class