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Kuvaszok: 100% white

Jeff,
In the Belgian Sheepdogs do you want just the black and black with white blaze, or do you want the fact that they can produce a Terv. in the genes? I know that they are two different breeds here but it can happen. It also goes from simple to complicated then.

sasher

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posted by sasher
Jeff,
In the Belgian Sheepdogs do you want just the black and black with white blaze, or do you want the fact that they can produce a Terv. in the genes? I know that they are two different breeds here but it can happen. It also goes from simple to complicated then.

sasher

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I was wondering the same thing because technically the Malinois, Terv, and Groenendael are all the same breed so they all should have the same color genetics. This is why I started with the Tibbies!
Nic
-Cocheta (Malinois kennel)

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posted by Kachina Kennels
I was wondering the same thing because technically the Malinois, Terv, and Groenendael are all the same breed so they all should have the same color genetics. This is why I started with the Tibbies!
Nic
-Cocheta (Malinois kennel)

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The there is also the issue of hair length/type if they are considered one breed like the UKC. And don't forget the Laekenois. I have found a website that describes it very well, but I still have to take the time and write out all the combinations. There is also the thought that there could be a black and tan Groen. but it would have a huge fault in the show ring like in the AKC.

sasher

This link may provide helpful links to many of the people working on their breed types - at the bottom of the page are a list of links to specific breeds colour genetics - hope this helps some of you!

homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/dogcolors.html

Jeff -
Do you want these expressed in correct genetic abbreviations for canines (ie Agouti, Brown, C albino, Dilution, Extension, Greying, Merle, Roaning, Spotting and Ticking) or just complete lists of possible combinations simplified down to express each breed's colours?

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posted by Wicked Mountains
Kuvaszok: 100% white

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100% Agree.

WSS are easy - We have all talked about it. We have:

Red/White
White/Red

and for those that think red is liver:

We have:
Red/White
White/Red

Hope this helps!
~Prima

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posted by Hermosa Havanese
One question- In havanese, which comes in every color and pattern you can imagine, do you just want colors, or things like Parti/Irish Pied(most all one color with some)/Piebald(almost all white)/solid color/tan markings, etc...

Thank you

Natasha

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Check out my Lowchen thread
www.showdog.com/login/Breeds/philboard_read.aspx?id=107586

Havanese and Lowchen have pretty much the same colours.

Havana Brown is sometimes a Chocolate dog (which I don't agree to) and other times a Dark Red Sable dog (which I think is the true Havana Brown).
And the "Blue", don't know about "born Blue" Havanese, all the ones I've seen are greyed "born Black".

So add intensity of Red and Black?

In regards to sashers statement, I posted this in the breed forum and I think it needs to be posted here. Its a big issue, IMO.





7/12/2008 6:16:35 AM

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this post has been edited 1 time(s)

I'm going to assume that all the dogs in our breed will just be KK. On that locus, both genes will be dominant. It is NOT realistic whatsoever, but I am going to assume this is what Jeff will do.

Do you remember that ridiculous arguement we had about the whole "interbreeding" fiasco a couple of years ago, sasher? I'm still willing to fight it, honestly. Jeff keeps making everything "realistic." If he wants it to be realistic, this is what has to be done:

If KK=Belgian Sheepdog
Kk=Belgian Sheepdog with the ability to produce a Terv, Mal, or Lak
kk=a Terv, Mal, or Lak

All the Belgian Sheepdogs need to have the ability to have both KK, Kk, and kk on that particular locus. Since Tervs, Mals, and Laks are all kk, they will not have the ability to turn to produce Belgian Sheepdogs obviously because there are no dominant genes to make the KK and Kk. However, if the Belgian Sheepdog is KK and Kk, then they will be able to produce the kk-which means, the Belgian Sheepdogs on showdog.com will have the ability to produce the other shepherds. This will add to a little bit of difficulty. Does this give the Belgians new gene pools on this game? yes. Does this give an added advantage to Belgian shepherd people? possibly, however I really think it will make things potentially more difficult because if I am someone who only is in the Belgian Sheepdog breed, and I produce a Lak or a Mal or a Terv that is really good-what am I going to do with it? Realistically, we would be able to breed it back to our Belgian Sheepdogs. Which is where the problem lies-Jeff won't do this.

So, he is basically adding color and genes and stuff to add to the realistic quality of the game. It will NOT be realistic for us if he doesn't let us interbreed or give our dogs the ability to produce the other three Belgians.

There is my two cents. If anyone has any questions about genetics involved with the breed, let me know. Not only am I involved with them on the game, I'm involved in real life.

I want to add that if this is implemented-the production of another belgian breed out of the belgian sheepdog will be fairly rare. Who knows what the starter dogs are-either KK or Kk. All the Belgian Sheepdogs in the game now are originally out of my line. It all depends on those starter dogs that I started with. Most of the pedigress now have my old Noah or my old Dylan in them-although those were not starter dogs, primarily all the lines now come from them. It is very possible that there could be only one Kk in that entire bunch of all Belgian Sheepdogs in the game. I think if this is added-there will not be an enormous amount of dogs that will produce the kk. So, this is why i do NOT think it will be a problem or give us an advantage.

A useful base for the breeds listed

www.healthgene.com/canine/C128.asp

List of Canine Coat and Nose Color Test for specific breeds:


Afghan Hound
Australian Shepherd
Border Collie
Briard
Brittany
Cardigan Welsh Corgi
Chinese Shar-Pei
Collie (Rough, Smooth)
Cocker Spaniel
Curly-Coated Retriever
Dachshund
Dalmatian
Doberman Pinscher
English Cocker Spaniel
English Setter
English Springer Spaniel
Field Spaniel
Flat-coated Retriever
French Bulldog
German Shepherd
German Longhaired Pointer
German Shorthaired Pointer
German Wirehaired Pointer
Great Dane
Greyhound
Groenendael
Japanese Chin
Labrador Retriever
Laekenois
Large Munsterlander
Lowchen
Malinois
Miniature Schnauzer
Newfoundland
Pointer
Pomeranian
Poodle
Portuguese Water Dog
Pug
Pudelpointer
Shetland Sheepdog
Staffordshire Bull Terrier
Tervuren
Whippet
Wirehaired Pointing Griffon

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Do you want these expressed in correct genetic abbreviations for canines (ie Agouti, Brown, C albino, Dilution, Extension, Greying, Merle, Roaning, Spotting and Ticking) or just complete lists of possible combinations simplified down to express each breed's colours?

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Yes, they are in the database as A, B, C, D, Mr, Rn, etc. For breeds that aren't impacted by a gene, it's left null.

Cashmere,

Belgian Shepherds are ky/ky, just like the Tervs, Mals, Groendals, and Laekenois. They are black due to recessive a at Agouti. K doesn't come into play at all in that group of breeds. They are all fixed at ky.

I am working on getting the entire list of possible colors for malamutes. It is NOT an easy breed.

suz

Nixtev,

Healthgene is a great resource for known genes in certain breeds. But it is definitely not all inclusive. A common misconception is that everything is already known about coat color genetics. That is simply not the case. There are postulated loci (mostly taken from the research of a certain C. C. Little back in 1957), but the actual genes, mutations and inheritance patterns are not currently known. Healthgene is able to give information about the color genes that we have defined already, but for loci that are not yet defined in terms of gene and mutation, they are not able to offer a test for it yet.

Currently, the mutations are known for the B, D, E, K, M, and A loci.

Loci such as T, Rn, S, C, etc. are not currently discovered (only loosely defined by postulation) so there will be no mention of them on any of the genetic testing sites (Healthgene or VetGen).

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posted by ShelGrace
Nixtev,

Healthgene is a great resource for known genes in certain breeds. But it is definitely not all inclusive.

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Which is why I said "A useful base for the breeds listed"
Its gives all of those ones listed a head start and saves working from scratch for data that is already known and published.
One of my breeds is listed on there so we just have to add the missing bits to it, my other breed isn't and is going to be a nightmare to do as we don't have published data anywhere and the majority of people in the breed in RL don't even understand colour genentics so we may be without colours on here for quite some time yet.

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posted by ShelGrace
Cashmere,

Belgian Shepherds are ky/ky, just like the Tervs, Mals, Groendals, and Laekenois. They are black due to recessive a at Agouti. K doesn't come into play at all in that group of breeds. They are all fixed at ky.

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According to a study done by a breeder/vet there is no longer ky it is the K locus and A locus. Here is the link to read:
www.bsca.info/research/DNAtesting.pdf

There is also a a recessive black that comes into play.

sasher

Sasher, my apologies. I have to say, my face is a little red. The doctor mentioned in that paper (not the author, but the researcher at the U of S), is my boss. I have been working with her for the past 2 years in coat color genetics research. I was under the impression that the Belgian Shepherd varieties were all ky (which is actually the terminology for the recessive allele of the K loci, that has been updated since the release of that paper you posted. KB > kbr > ky), but was mistaken in that. I know there are a couple of herding breeds that carry dominant and recessive black, Aussies and Border Collies come to mind. But I wasn't aware that Belgians were in that grouping as well.

There are a couple of recent papers that go over the K locus in more detail.

Candille, et al. (2007) A beta-defensin mutation causes black coat color in domestic dogs. Science. 5855:1418-23

Kerns, et al. (2007) Linkage and segregation analysis of black and brindle coat colors in domestic dogs. Genetics. 3:1679-89

This is a forum we started up in the Great Dane forum a while ago:

www.showdog.com/login/Breeds/philboard_read.aspx?id=106570

Hope it helps.

~Lugo Kennels

what breeds have you got acceptable genetics for and what breeds are still in need?????