.com Forum · Alpha Dog Forum

Pictures help me a lot. Could you point me in the right direction to see the difference between a fawn brindle and a red brindle? Is the red brindle just a deeper red than the fawn? As it is not possible for a e/e red to be brindle, I would guess that the fawn brindle and the red brindle would both be kbr/_ E/_ ay/ay, possibly with the difference being at the I locus, of which very little is known presently. That could be factored into the genotypes easily by having fawn dogs (either fawn or fawn brindle) being i/i, intermediately pigmented fawn dogs as I/i and "red" brindle or deep fawn dogs being I/I.

So these guys would be I/I
www.canadogs.com/images/StaffBullTerradult5.jpg
www.healthgene.com/canine/images/staffordshire.jpg

This guy would be I/i
www.dogguide.net/images/breeds/staffordshirebullterrier.jpg

And this guy would be i/i
img.quamut.com/chart/1321/01_staffordshirebullterrier_profile.jpg


I'm not saying there is necessarily anything wrong with your list. Just trying to help out.

I already went through a lot of this (it's in the staffiebull forum under the thread about color) there is really a great big lack of any useful sort of information. Which is why I had to do a "made up" sort of model. Admin is going to run into a lot of trouble if they are trying to get every single breed under the same genetic model. There is just too much information that is either stipulation or completely contradictory.
Plus I don't even know which genetic model they are using as I have found two different models that have some very great differences to them. I think what you came up with is roughly the same as what I have, I didn't bother with nose color (anything with blue in it would have a blue nose, otherwise the nose is black).
Check out the Staffiebull forum and you will have pretty much as much information as I have.

Straightedge Kennel

ETA... I think your I/i is the same as me using two different alleles at the D locus to differentiate between diluted red coat and diluted black and red coat. I know it is not scientific, but it was the only way I could come up with having red and fawn dogs (and not be stuck with red dogs with blue masks and/or brindling). Also there are only two colors listed in the standard... red and fawn. Using the "I" locus would give us three different shades.

luton.gumtree.com/posting_images/25/23479425__1209832686__1__1-fd4f1836ea16a042fbf0113f1b18389b.__big__.jpg
This might be a light red brindle, it's hard to tell.

homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/brindle.html

Part way down is a picture of a fawn brindle Great Dane. This is the clearest picture of a fawn brindle dog I have been able to find.
(I have dial-up so looking at too many pictures gets tedious after a while, but I will keep my eyes open)

Straightedge Kennel

I'm pretty sure all the Tibetan Mastiff breeders are in agreement and these were our findings:

www.showdog.com/login/Breeds/philboard_read.aspx?id=110078&recordnum=0

A=black
d=blue dilute
b=brown dilute
Ay=gold (ranging from cream to red and is recessive to black dominent to black/tan)
at=black and tan (completely recessive)

Black
A- D- B-
AADDBB
AADdBB
AADDBb
AADdBb
AAyDDBB
AAyDdBB
AAyDDBb
AAyDdBb
AatDDBB
AatDDBb
AatDdBB
AatDdBb

Black/Tan
at/at D- B-
at/atDDBB
at/atDdBB
at/atDDBb
at/atDdBb

Blue Gray
AA dd B-
AAddBB
AAddBb
AAyddBB
AAyddBb
AatddBB
AatddBb

Blue Gray/Tan
at/at dd B-
at/atddBB
at/atddBb

Brown
A- D- bb
AADDbb
AADdbb
AAyDdbb
AAyDDbb
AatDDbb
AatDdbb

Brown/Tan
at/at D- bb
at/atDDbb
at/atDdbb

Gold
Ay- D- B-
AyAyDDBB
AyAyDdBB
AyAyDDBb
AyAyDdBb
AyatDDBB
AyatDdBB
AyatDDBb
AyatDdBb

Gold Dilute
Ay- dd OR bb
AyAyddBB
AyAyddBb
AyAyDDbb
AyAyDdbb
AyatddBB
AyatddBb
AyatDDbb
AyatDdbb

Double Dilute Gold (not cream, but a washed out tan)
Ay- dd bb
AyAyddbb
Ayatddbb

Double Dilute which has not been proven/seen in RL to my knowledge but is suspected to be weimeraner colored (blueish tan?)
A-ddbb
AAddbb
Aatddbb

Black and Tan - 30%
Gold - 25%
Black - 20%
Blue - 5%
Blue/tan - 5%
Brown (chocolate) - 5%
Brown/Tan - 5%
Gold Dilute - 2%
Gold Double Dilute - 2%
Double Dilute - 1% (RL non-exsistant, but for the sake of genetics in the game)

I'm guessing more popular breeds are in front of those of us in the middle of the popularity pole?

Smiles,
Nic

beagles
Shaded Tri
Chocolate Tri
Classic Tri
Blue Tri
Red & White
clubs.akc.org/NBC/beagle_colors.htm

This is an EXTREMELY oversimplified color code for the ALASKAN MALAMUTE that should work for the game. Very basic. The real codes for this breed are just too extensive for this purpose. This will suffice and give us basic color.

BASIC Colors; listed in order of prevelence in the breed:

35% Gray and White (very common)
25% Seal and white (very common)
15% Sable and White (common)
15% Red and White (common)
6% Blue and White (rare)
1.5% Black and White (very rare)
1.5% Mahogany and White (very rare)
1.0% White (very extremely rare)

**IMPORTANT JEFF**
In all colors:
25% non carrier b,d,e
25% b carrier
10% d carrier
1% e carrier

AABBchchDDEE Gray and White
AABbchchDDEE Gray and White/red carrier
AABBchchDdEE Gray and white/dilute blue carrier
AABBchchDDEe Gray and white/white carrier

atatBBchchDDEE Seal and White
atatBbchchDDEE Seal and white/red carrier
atatBBchchDdEE Seal and white/dilute blue carrier
atatBBchchDDEe seal and white/white carrier

AABBChChDDEE Sable and white
AABbChChDDEE Sable and white/red carrier
AABBChChDdEE Sable and white/dilute blue carrier
AABBChChDDEe Sable and white/white carrier

AAbbchchDDEE Red and white
AAbbchchDdEE Red and white/dilute carrier
AAbbchchDDEe Red and white/white carrier

AABBchchddEE Blue and white
AABbchchddEE Blue and white/red carrier
AABbchchddEe Blue and white/white carrier


atatBBchchDDEE Black and White
atatBbchchDDEE Black and white/red carrier
atatBBchchDdEE Black and white/dilute blue carrier
atatBBchchDDEe Black and white/white carrier

atatbbchchDDEE Mahogany and white
atatbbchchDdEE Mahogany and white/dilute carrier
atatbbchchDDEe Mahogany and white/white carrier

AABBchchDDee White
AABbchchDDee White/red carrier
AABBchchDdee White/dilute carrier

Suz (Kimoko)

I have found a reference for Bernese Mountain Dogs from Dr Malcolm Willis who states all Bernese are CC (coloured) DD (non dilution) EE (extension of pigment) gg (black not altering to blue) mm (non merle) tt (non ticked) and atatBBsisi.

Although there have been a few VERY rare reports of red, tan and white Bernese which would be atatbbsisi (so there is a possibility that some dogs are actually Bb) this is so rare as to mean that most people in the breed have never seen one and can expect to never see one ! Hope this helps

I was just wondering if Admin could post the genetic model that they want the breeds expressed in. List all the loci and the alleles that are possible at those loci and how they affect coat color. I think that might make things a little less confusing (and help breeds that are trying to figure out how to make there colors work). I have seen at least two separate models that have great differences in the way the genes are supposed to interact.
If we have the "official" model then we can at least try to get the most accurate breed model out of it (getting all the needed colors and how they interact due to breeding).
I know that my staffie bull model is "made up" and might not be useful to you.

Straightedge Kennel

collie.com/collie_color_chart.html" target="_blank">www.blessedacrescollie.com/collie_color_chart.html

This site is the best example I could find on the web that accurately portrays Rough/Smooth Collie color inheritance. It includes genetics, as well as percentages in litters and was taken from a vet book on the breed specifically (almost literally no reading, all pictures and gene listings)

I'm still trying to find a registry of the percentages of colors in collies, but I can tell you based on entries in shows as well as pups in breeding, what I've noticed being the most in color:

Sables 50%
Tricolors 25%
Blue Merles 20%
Sable Merles 5%

I have seen whites scattered about, but I only know of 2 breeders of White Collies, and not all of their collies are white. So out of a hundred I'd have to say I've seen about 10% of them be white. Then again, that is all based on my own personal experience in the breed. Someone would have to look up registered colors, which I currently dont know where to find for them.

Also to add, Sable Merles (both tri-factored and not) are entered in Sable classes.

Also...again, here is the Collie forum posts:

www.showdog.com/login/Breeds/philboard_read.aspx?id=110060

I found this very simplified model for the Kelpies. Does anyone have any suggestions or changes???

Thanks,
Patty

***********************************
Percentage of Color Distribution:
1. Black & Tan 25%
2. Brown & Tan 20%
3. Cream 15%
4. Brown 10%
5. Blue 10%
6. Black 10%
7. Blue & Tan 5%
8. Fawn 2.5%
9. Fawn & Tan 2.5%

(Please note: This is the best figure I am able to come up with as there is some debate on the colors between the show and working breeders.)


*Black*
BBDDEEKK
BbDdEeKk

*Brown*
bbDDEEKK
bbDdEeKk

*Blue*
BBddEEKK
BbddEeKk

*Fawn*
bbddEEKK
bbddEeKk

*Black W/Tan Points*
atat BBDDEEkk
atat BbDdEekk

*Brown W/Tan Points*
atat bbDDEEkk
atat bbDdEekk

*Blue W/Tan Points*
atat BBddEEkk
atat BbddEekk

*Fawn W/Tan Points*
atat bbddEEkk
atat bbddEekk

*Cream*
BBddee
Bbddee
bbddee
bbDdee
bbDDee
BBDDee
BbDdee

If someone could email me and show me how you get the break downs (in easy to understand format) I could do Mastiffs. They should be pretty easy and straight forward with only a few colors, minus the very rare pop up.

Jenn

I'm having a very hard time finding the genetics for both Caucasians and Estrelas, does anyone know of a useful site with rare breed genetics? Jen

Calling any geneticists.

I wonder if someone in the know could check out our post in the GSP forum re coding for GSP colours.

www.showdog.com/login/Breeds/philboard_read.aspx?id=110162

I'm not sure if I have it right, genetics not really being my thing.

Thanks,
BP.

For rare breed you probably will not beable to find much specific information about them. Try just Guestimating how it works from the general sites.

B>b
B - black
b - brown

D>d
D - not dilute
d - dilute (black is blue, brown is cream or fawn or pale brown, gold is cream/fawn)

Ai>ay>at>a
Ai - agouti (present in some primative type breeds)
ay - sable/gold/yellow
at - has tan points
a - black/regular colour

C>ch
C - regular colour
ch - silvered (less brown), or another dilution factor

S>si>sp>sw
S - no white
si - white paws, chest, tail tip
sp - mostly white with patches of colour
sw - all white

K>kb>ky
K - black/ regular colour
kb - brindle
ky - allows A gene expression

M>m
M - merle
m - no merle

T>t
T - no ticking
t - ticking

Em>E>e
Em - mask
E - normal colour
e - red/lemon

Figure out which genes are involved in the colours of your breed and ignore the rest.
For instance in my post in Sibes I ignored E, T, M, K, D genes entirely and I ignored at, ay from the A series because they are all constant in Sibes (or they didn't line up with the colours possible eg. pale red is present but blue is not so I used C/ch instead of D/d)

grif,

I'd help...but i have no clue what anyone's doing...or how they're figuring it out.

Still don't understand it much...this probably isn't right, but w/e.

Black: K
Brindle: k>br
Black Carrying Brindle: K/k>br
Black Carrying Fawn: K/k
Brindles carrying fawn: k>br/k
Tri-color: at
White: swsw
White markings: S
Black Pigment: B
Brown Pigment: bb
Black mask: Em

The lhasa apso colours have now been sorted and another uses has just posted them up.
(there on the last page now)

I do have one question that has come up in my breed(s). Are there going to be disqualifications and faults for illegal colors?

This would be more realistic and add more strategy to the game.

sasher

that is also a question in my breed. If there is a way to prevent them from showing or whatever they are not allowed to do when not registered, I think I would like to have them.

I don't plan on it right now and even if we did, there would be a very long (six-month or so) warning to give plenty of time to breed for whatever colors are necessary.